steve1

To me an honest gun owner is one who has no criminal record and abides by whatever laws are in place, at the time. Oh sure there have been some honest gun owners who have later gone on to commit a murder with them. With the millions of people who legally own guns, is this any wonder? What should we do make it impossible to buy a gun because this possibility exists? What good is a substantial waiting period? Background checks shouldn't take that long to find out if you have committed a felony or have a history of mental problems. Again substantial waiting periods would hamper an honest gun buyer who is playing by the rules. Do you think criminals are going to play by the rules? This is not an idealistic world, and never will be, no matter how many ridiculous laws you want to pass. One legal means to obtain a gun without any background check is to just buy a gun from another gun owner without any background check or registration. (At least here in Montana this is possible.) The newspapers are full of guns for sale. Another method favored by criminals is just to go into someone's home and rip one off. Again there is no paperwork involved here. I'm also against registering guns. I can not see how this is doing much to catch gun criminals. It does let the government know exactly who has legal weapons and they can go on to harass these honest gun owners, but registration also overlooks millions of guns that are not registered. Do you think a criminal is going to go in and volunteer to register his firearm? We also talked earlier of how governments can become too powerful and controlling. If you have a weapon and it's registered, the BATF knows exactly who to harass. Did you know the BATF even has it's own airforce now? That they have been known to storm and ransack people's homes because they had suspicion that someone had something illegal. One fellow was suspected of having a fully automatic weapon. The BATF knocked his door down and stormed his house like a typical SWAT operation to find nothing. The guy was innocent. They left with his house in shambles. Then there was the Randy Weaver incident in Idaho. The government spent millions investigating this guy, eventually stormed his home, killed his wife, and tried to kill him. What brought all this on. Sure he was defending his home and probably shouldn't have been firing back. But it all started over the fact that he had a shotgun with a barrel that was too short. They also had suspicions that he was plotting against the government, but I don't think they even had much evidence to support this. Is it any wonder that honest gun owners are starting to fear the government. I'm sure someone can poke holes in some of these ideas, but this is how things look to me. Steve1

QuoteJtval, I remember, when this happened. Yes, I'm an old fart. I really think he landed in the river and drowned. If you've ever been along this river you know what I mean when I say it's treacherous. They found some of the money in the river also. I recall watching a special, years back, where someone doubted anyone could survive jumping out of a jet. That's common practice now days, though. I even made my first jump out of a jet in the Army. Steve1[ ......................................................................... After watching this special, It sounds to me like it was this guy from Utah. We used to train with the 19th SF group in Utah and I may even have ridden in this guys helicopter during the 70's. Steve1

Kallend, I know you are a big fan of statistics, so I found a little more that might interest you. During the past 10 years, of the killers who shoot and kill police officers, 73% had prior criminal arrests, and 23% were actually on parole or probation. This suggests to me that our society needs to get tough with criminals and quit harassing honest gun owners with laws that don't work. Steve1

Jtval, I remember, when this happened. Yes, I'm an old fart. I really think he landed in the river and drowned. If you've ever been along this river you know what I mean when I say it's treacherous. They found some of the money in the river also. I recall watching a special, years back, where someone doubted anyone could survive jumping out of a jet. That's common practice now days, though. I even made my first jump out of a jet in the Army. Steve1

If you actually produced some valid data to support your claim, it might be worth debating. As it is, you just keep saying the same thing but produce nothing to back it up. That fits my definition of "hot air". ........................................................... I'm not a big fan of statistics because they can be twisted to prove nearly any argument. There are some statistics that do stand out in my mind though. Such as there are presently 20,000 gun laws on the books that are doing little to stop gun crime in America. (I mentioned this earlier.) Studies also indicate that firearms are used over two million times a year for personal protection and the presence of a firearm, without a shot being fired, prevents crime in many instances. If these statistics aren't accurate, please refute them. I'm willing to listen. Steve1

Kallend, Are you still going at it? You must have an unlimited supply of hot air. Are you telling another big windy when you say you are not particularly anti-gun?....... How in the hell can you say that the US is not a violent place? I don't care if you did find some statistics that fit your argument. The U.S. is a very violent place, and it's not just due to the availability of firearms. There are many other factors involved. To compare the US to other countries in Europe is like comparing apples to oranges. They have a different culture. Maybe having a lot of rules and restrictions, enforced by an all powerful government, makes you feel warm and fuzzy, but I'm not buying what you are selling. Steve1

I've been there. I once got to the point where I didn't care if I jumped or not. After about 300 jumps it just seemed like the same old thing, and I was short on money, so I quit for about 25 years. Now that I'm back I don't ever want to get to that point again. As several people have mentioned, maybe a new discipline or challenge in our sport is what you need for motivation. I figure if I ever start to burn out on relative work, I'll try freeflying or crw. I just don't want to lose the excitement, adventure, and comradery that jumping has to offer. It's just way too much fun. Steve1

I've been told that our club in Western Montana is the oldest active Collegiant club in the nation. I don't recall the year it started, but I think it was in the 50's. B.J. Worth got his start there. It started in Missoula, but is now located in Stevensville. Steve1

Enrique, We were just kidding about that part. Steve1

You really think I wanna-be a redneck? And have to loose some frontal teeth? Or shoot Budweiser cans from the porch whenever I'm bored? .... as if there wasn't anything better to do like spitting contests or pig mud-wrestling .......................................................................... Hey, this all sounds like fun to me! Steve1

I first read Animal Farm in 1963. How about you? I bet the British and the Australians and the Canadians are quaking in their shoes with worry about their governments becoming too powerful. ......................................................................... If they aren't worried they should be. This sort of thing is still happening over and over again in the World today. Look at many countries in South America or Africa. Some good old boys take over the country. They have almost complete power. After all they control the military and most other things in the country. How are the people going to get them out of power? The people probably don't get to vote in a fair election. That right was probably taken away a long time ago. So again what choice do the people have to get these corrupt all powerful dip sticks out of office. It's probably going to be through a bloody revolution where there is tremendous suffering. When the government is overthrown they put some more good old boys in power who eventually become just as corrupt as the other leadership was because they didn't have the forsight to develop a constitution like the one we have, that limits the power of any one governing body. Maybe you would like a move toward Socialism or some other type of government, but most Americans are smarter than that. I'm not saying the governments of Britian, Canada, or Australia are bad, but they too should be worried about a government becoming to strong or controlling. This is my opinion. Steve1

Jfields, How many times do we have to bring up the fact that there is not unlimited private ownership of guns in our country. As I mentioned earlier there are over 20,000 gun laws on the books now. Things are very limited in terms of gun ownership if you ask me. If you've committed a felony you can't own a gun. I think this may be a good law. If you are mentally incompetent you can not own a gun. Another good law. As you can see I'm not in favor of unlimited ownership of guns either. What I am saying is that further laws are probably going to hurt honest gun owners more than criminals. Maybe we should quit arguing. Many of these arguments have already been discussed. Again, you have a right to your opinion. Steve1

Enrique, You know you are a Redneck if you go to family reunions to pick up women. You know you are a Redneck if your taxidermy bill is greater than your annual gross income. The country dancing part sounds like fun. I never learned how to jitter bug, and I think I missed out on a lot. We used to hit a lot of places after rodeos and this seemed like the dance everyone was doing. Steve1

Jfields, I agree there have been some terrible accidents with firearms. But let's face it the world is never going to be a perfectly safe place. I know you think that it would be a better place if we got rid of all guns. I'm not knocking you for trying to make things safer for folks. I just feel this is the wrong approach. It's been argued earlier that with the millions of guns already in this country, how would the government get them all? The ones left would be in the hands of criminals. Honest people would be defenseless against them. Sure you could call the police in time of need. But that also was argued earlier. You can't always depend on the government to save you or for the police to get there in time. I feel guns often do serve a good purpose and many of us aren't willing to give up them up or a right that is guaranteed in our constitution. That is an emotional appeal though, when you start talking about the graves of children. That brings us back to the swimming pool argument. Swimming pools kill a lot more children than guns do each year. Should we ban all swimming pools? Steve1

Jfields, No, I'm not a card carrying member of the NRA. I've let my membership lapse. But I plan to sign up again. No, I don't agree with everything they stand for, but for the most part I do. Yes, they do have a lot of money in their budget, because there are a lot of gun owners who don't want their rights taken away any. Special interest groups with money do have power in America. Maybe this is a sad state of affairs, but that is how the game is played in Washington. The main thing I like about the NRA is that they want to limit the power of the government and make sure our constitution isn't twisted into something it wasn't meant to be. Such as taking away our second amendment rights. I think you and Kallend should read George Orwell's "Animal Farm". It was a classic example of what can happen if a government becomes to powerful. Steve1

Whaddya mean "if". It's already been sold lock stock and barrel to special interests. .......................................................... I mean if your are willing to give our rights away, I doubt if us good guys would want you.............. but you have a right to your opinion. After all this is America. Talk to you tomorrow, I've got to go. Steve1

Well, it's funny that the Vietnam vets I know claim almost to a man that the reason the VC prevailed was that the US military was fighting with one hand tied behind its back, figuratively speaking, thanks to political ineptitude. ........................................................... Sure that was a factor. But there was a lot more to it than that. Ask any Vet if it was easy to identify who the VC were. They outsmarted the US much of the time and were often a deadly threat. If you're saying they weren't a formidable foe you're dreaming. Sure we probably could have won in Vietnam, but at what cost? My point is that much of the weaponry that the US now has couldn't be used on a guerrilla force that was main streamed in with the general population. Steve1

Silly, silly Kallend. You just don't get it, do you? This imbalance between the military and civilian citizens is why we need to allow private individuals to own grenades, Stinger missiles, mines and a wide array of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. After all, it is our constitutional right to bear arms. Please, God, grasp the sarcasm, everyone. .......................................................... I just wonder who's side you and Kallen would be on if the government did become corrupt. I'm sorry your humor fails to amuse anyone with common sense. Steve1

Of course, in Webster's day the government forces weren't armed with smart bombs and Apache gunships, but had basically the same arms that the civilians had. IF the government/military decided to turn on the people (a very unlikely scenario IMHO) the conflict would be rather one sided these days. .......................................................... This kind of reminds me of Lyndon Johnson talking back in the 70's. He didn't think much of the Viet Cong either. After all they were a primitive backward people who were often poorly supplied. Yet they later went on to kick a Super Powers ass. Mainly because they were more dedicated than we were, and it was often impossible to tell where the enemy was. A well armed guerrilla force could still be a threat. Take away enough basic rights from a group of people you'd better watch out. What are you going to do drop a smart bomb on your own people to kill a few of the enemy who might have been there? I traveled through Mexico some last winter. Guns are forbidden there. How do you think they control the starving masses. They make sure they can't fight back. They take away all their weapons and then they can put the screws to them, and they can't fight back. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that our government could do the same thing. Steve1

Does anyone know of any drop zones near Earie Penn? (I'll bet Earie is mispelled.) I may go there in December for some training for my job. They were going to pick San Diego but chose Earie instead. What a bummer! I had visions of jumping at Perris again. At any rate I'm just wondering if it is possible to get in some jumps near Earie in Dec. I've heard it's a cold place, so it may be a no go for jumping. Thanks, Steve1

Winters are the shits in Montana, because it's next to impossible to find a place to jump. What kept my spirits up, the past two years, was a pilgrimage to Perris at Christmas. That isn't going to happen this year though. I hope to do some snow skiing in the western part of the state, and who knows maybe even get a jump or two in either at Lost Prairie or Stevensville. Steve1

Kallend, The gun shows I've been to still include mountains of paper work including background checks, waiting periods on pistols etc. This wasn't the case a few years ago, but the story is different now. This is pertaining to Montana. I'm sure many states have even tougher laws and restrictions regulating gun sales at gun shows. Steve1

If a gun owner had this training, I would agree that they would stand a better chance of not having their gun taken away from them by an assailant. From my observations most gun owners do not get such training. .......................................................................... Bill, I respect your opinion. I agree that training is important. As you mentioned earlier this is at times very expensive. I think much of this training can be self taught though. I received some training in the army. I was once a weapons specialist, trained in both light and heavy weapons, on a special forces A-team. But to tell you the truth probably the best training I have had is shooting a gun from the time I was about six. Not only shooting, but hunting. As kids we started out with BB guns and graduated to 22's. What little I know about self defense training I learned mostly from books and magazines. I also have a brother who teaches firearm training in the police academy so he was a source of info. But I'm no expert in this area by a long shot. All I know is that I like the idea of keeping my family safe and I don't want to give up that right. Steve1

Quatorze, Good advice. Makes since to me. Steve1

[ I don't want to "take away" your right to own and bear arms. However, it would be nice if you'd acknowledge that unrestricted and anonymous ownership of an unlimited number of firearms is not a right guaranteed by the constitution. Starting with that common ground of understanding makes the whole debate more reasonable, as we have a mutual understanding of our starting point. We may disagree from there, but at least the foundation is clear. .......................................................................... I agree with you that unrestricted ownership of firearms is wrong. We have numerous rules and regulations already. Last I heard there are over 20.000 gun laws on the books now in the US. Will more really make any difference in stopping crime. If anything, all it will do is to further limit honest gun owners rights. I don't see why the government needs to limit the number of firearms a person has. As long as they are managed carefully, why is this needed? I have different guns for different purposes. I use one for birds, another for deer, another for elk, and so on. What buisness is it of the governments to limit the number I have, and how will this deter crime? It doesn't make sense to me. Many people who own guns aren't in favor of registering them. I'm not either. My reasoning is that one day if we get a corrupt government in power, which is possible, history does repeat itself, the government would know exactly who has guns and confiscation would be easy for that government. I'll tell you government over-regulation and even the BATF scare me. When you talked earlier about having respect for our laws and courts, I'm not disagreeing with you on this. Most gun owners are very law abiding people. But I think you also need to have respect for our country's constitution and what it stands for. Our basic rights aren't something that should be given up easily. Lot's of good people fought and died to get these rights and others have fought and died to keep them. Did all these people give up their life just so someone can manipulate the constitution to their own whim? I think not. Steve1