skydived19006

I doubt that either of you guys would know, but I wonder if there are any AN-28s in the USA hauling skydivers. What are the runway requirements? Are they at all economical? Seems that huge Russian radial would be a cash vacuum. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Issue 1: Proper notification of the BOD about proposed changes to Governance Manual Section 3-1. Seems straight forward to me, abide by the rules. I would ask that Jan Meyer bring a point of order and declare these improper changes to be null and void. I would also ask that Jan Meyer prepare a new motion, and distribute at least 15 days in advance and along with the call of the meeting. If you have to wait to the meeting to call a point of order, in order to void the changes, it’ll be too late to submit a new motion 15 days in advance. Issue 2. Use of ballots other than the one that is sent to members in the November issue of Parachutist. My opinion is that the source of the ballot should not be an issue, any photo copy, etc should be valid. My opinion is that the USPA member number should be required, as opposed to license numbers. USPA numbers are easily accessible through the USPA web site, but not as widely accessible as license numbers. Also adhere to the rule regarding (or past practice) regarding pre-marked ballots. Issue 5: Member verification to validate a ballot. I think that any questionable ballot should be checked against the members’ signature as signed on his individual membership form. These signatures should be attached in digital form on the USPA member database. In the case of duplicate ballots, the signatures should be checked against the individuals membership form. It is most likely to late to scan all current members individual membership forms for the upcoming election, but over the course of 12 to 18 months, every renewal, and new membership form could be scanned and attached, or a separate database generated to maintain these records, and to make them very readily accessible. Issue 3: Dates that the ballots are counted. I echo Jan Meyer’s opinion on this point. No ballots should be counted until the poles close. Issue 4: Communication between HQ and candidates about paperwork requirements. I think that HQ should give equal treatment to every candidate, and potential candidate. It is impossible for HQ to know who may be a potential candidate, so to give assistance to a sitting member and not to another potential candidate is preferential treatment, and should not be allowed. I think that any candidate, or potential candidate should be given assistance, and questions answered if asked by the candidate, but only if the inquiry is precipitated by the candidate. Issue 6: Nomination of Regional Director Candidates. I’d like to see this rule changed. My opinion is that the ballot requirements for Regional Director should mirror the requirement for National Director. If it is allowed by the Governance Rules, I think that this rule should be put on the 2008 BOD ballot. If a change to the Governance Manual can be made in order to allow this proposed change to be put on the 2008 BOD ballot, I’d ask that Jan Meyer submit the proposal for change per policy. Issue 7: Changes to the Governance Manual Section 3-1 unilaterally done by HQ staff. I ask that Jan Meyer call a point of order, and that the BOD declare any such changes to the Governance Manual to be Null and Void. With regard to this issue, I also ask that Jan Meyer communicate with the Full Board through approved process of her intention, thus giving other members time to submit proper changes, with proper notification if they so desire. Feel free to share my opinions with anyone concerned! Martin Myrtle 104570, D19006 Wichita Kansas 316-409-7977 aircapitaldropzone@yahoo.com Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

That's cool. I assume that you don't have any vintage pictures? I wonder if anyone at Skydive K-State (recently changed from KSUPC), would have any old pictures from that DZ location. I would think that they might like to have a few pictures from the Skydive Topeka DZ at their Wamego DZ. They're still operating with no running water, and a privy, so the pictures could be handy when someone complains about the outdoor facilities. I know that a couple of the DZ locations Dennis mentioned are nothing more than a grass strip, and maybe a T-hanger similar to what you show here. So, you're in Kansas? Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

This I think is a common problem. The statistic I like to point to is not student retention, but A license skydiver retention. My "A" license is A19518 (circa 1994), "A" licenses are now over 55,000 14 years later. Where did these 35,000 skydivers go? USPA membership fluctuates around 30,000 to 35,000 (from memory). My opinion is that a large part of the problem is that these folks are shunned since they're not paying someone to jump with them anymore, and the up-jumpers don't want to "waste a dive" with them. A license skydiver retention is an issue at my DZ, but it's typically due to external (external to skydiving and DZ politics) reasons, like the girl that starts dating a non skydiving boyfriend, kids, etc. Also my biased observation is that A license retention is better with IAD/SL. You do not complete an A license in a few weeks training static line at a small DZ! I'd say that the average is more like 6 months. By this time our students have literally spent hundreds of hours at the DZ, are family, and are treated as such. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Two here, 4, and 6 years old. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Gary, very cool. Short and sweet, it'll even print easily, then just pin up at the DZ. I generally use usairnet.com as well, it has all the information we need, and with the "current weather". You do need to know how to read the encoded data to get current cloud heights, etc. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

My business (DZ) is a S-Cooperation. I don't really think that I could get a bank to loan my cooperation (I'm the only shareholder) anything without also cosigning and being personally liable. Although now, the cooperation may have enough collateral to cover a loan. I still doubt that any/many bankers would be lining up to loan my business money without me guaranteeing it. In an S-cooperation all profit/loss passes directly through to the shareholder/s anyway, basically the same thing as an LLC. Did I hear someone say that you need a lawyer? Running a DZ is a lot of work regardless of structure. Every structure has it's advantages/problems. With a club you have more people (theoretically) to help out, but every decision becomes political. Club structure is a little idealistic, with the expectation that the members will all step up and carry their share of the load, but there are a few clubs out there who've made it work for a long time. With sole ownership, everything falls to the owner, unless he can afford to hire employees, or garner free assistance from friends. Those friendships are guaranteed to change as the relationship changes. Somewhat like when a coworker becomes the boss. When the new boss makes a unpopular decision, it's because the power had went to his head, and he's now an ass hole. Running a DZ, and working a "real job" is even more fun! Can you say 60 to 80 hour work week? Good thing my day job isn't all consuming, and that my family likes to spend their weekend at the DZ. That's my take anyway, but I'll freely admit to being an ass hole. It's just simpler that way. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

One suggestion I'd make is to not buy the business! Start your own LLC (or whatever model you choose), and purchase whatever assets you think you need. It's a lot easier for the current DZO to sell everything to one entity than trying to sell the aircraft, and all the gear to 20 different people. The DZ may be profitable, but still go under. Maybe the DZO was paying himself so he and his family could eat indoors? Somewhat off topic, but something to consider regarding a club. I had recently wondered what happens when a club liquidates. Where does the debt, or money go? Does joining a club also obligate one to a share of the debt, or is that carried by those who signed up for it in the beginning? For a club that's been around for 40 years, the founding fathers are more than likely no longer around, if it liquidates, and has assets does the money go back to the guys who started the club? Maybe it's all in the language of the club charter? Sounds like you need a lawyer! Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Thanks for the history Dennis, Interesting how commercialization, primarily tandem, has changed Skydiving and drop zones. Seems that 30 years ago a DZ consisted of some sort of a runway, an airplane, and a tree, quite a few of them anyway. I have a little perspective with 18 years in the sport (7 as a DZO), seen DZs and skydivers come and go. It’s always interesting (annoying) to have what we refer to as “200 jump wonders” try to tell me how I should run a DZ. Hell, any DZ that’s been in operation for more than 5 years is an anomaly it seems. I often tell them that when they have 1000 jumps, or 10 years in the sport to get back with me. Anyway, it seems that running a small DZ is in ways a lot harder than running a large one. Not that the medium, and large ones don’t have their own set of issues. Working a real job, combined with an all consuming DZ seems to kill DZOs, marriages, and families, and many small DZs fold after 1 or 2 years. I started a similar thread in a local forum, more as a lesson in history, and in an attempt to give folks a bit of perspective. I did another one regarding the aircraft crash history on Derby Cook Filed (K50). In the 7 years before I owned the DZ, there were 5 airplanes crashed. In the 7 years since I’ve been DZO that number is zero. Maybe it has/had more to do with maintenance and pilots than “bad mojo”? Martin D-19006 Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Forgive me if I’m repeating something already said, I only read 30 of the 60 responses. I was also confused on this point a while back, so I simply emailed Jim Crouch, go figure. I don’t think that Jim would have issue with me posting his comments, do here it is. This message was dated April 6, 2007 Hi Martin, Yes, it is 25 jumps period. The number of static line or tandem jumps does not matter. The Board elected to change the requirement to jump numbers rather than freefalls because the A license is earned from performance of the student, and measurable with the proficiency card. So in theory, if a student had a long enough freefall, he could complete all of the freefall training objectives in one skydive. But that is not likely to happen, and they could not complete them doing tandems or on a static line. But a jump is a jump as far as counting the numbers goes, and that also includes Military static lines from 800 feet. Let me know if you have any other questions. I guess your season is getting ready to move into full swing. So much for a winter rest! See you soon, Jim Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Yes, SD Kansas was originally located on the Pomona/Lyndon airport. I think that they moved to Osage City after one year at Pomona/Lyndon I had wondered if there was ever a DZ in NW Kansas, and St Francis is as NW as you can get. The short lived DZs of the 80s were before I started jumping, so never heard of them. I'm sure there are quite a few places where people had jumped but no "real DZ" existed. I saw a picture more than likely from the 70s of a guy in freefall over the Lyons airport, but there wasn't a "DZ" there until 1986. All you need to jump (legally) is land owners permission, an airplane, pilot, skydiver/s, gear, and file the NOTAM. Interesting info Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Out of curiosity, I tried to put together a list of Kansas DZs current and former. Am I missing any? I've been jumping since 1990, so a few obviously proceed me. I'm also interested in any additional information on each, and especially why they closed down. How many were in operation for 10 years? I know KSUPC, and SD Kansas have both passed 10 years, and are two of the three current DZs. OZ SPC also operated for over 10 years. Air Capital DZ is going on 7 years, might make 10, but I totally understand why DZOs burn out and move on, especially when DZO is a side to a real job! Here's what I come up with: SD Kansas (current), KSUPC (Current), Air Capital Drop Zone (current) OZ DZ Lyons SD Wichita, Sky Tours (Cook Field), Jay Hawk Skydivers (Cook Field), Air Capital Skydiving (Cook Field), SD Suppesville, (still somewhat in operation) Kansas Sky Ranch Kansas City Skydivers (Name? Located on the Kansas side in/near KC) Eldorado, Cheney, Sky Sports, Garnett, Jetmore, Harrington, Maize, Savute's (to my knowledge just flew jumpers once in a while, never really a DZ. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

A couple of points I've noticed. One DZO I know of was trying to survive from the revanue generated by his one Cessna Kansas DZ. When he had to choose between maintenance and eating, he chose food. He also crashed that airplane http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20010316X00591&key=1. I have a day job, the DZ does have to support itself, but not me and my family. On the topic of TBO, what's the difference in a Texas Skyways carbureted 520 with a 2500 hour TBO, and an equally well built O-470 with a 1500 hour TBO, obviously other than the number on the paperwork? My 0-470 has 2300 hours on it right now, strong compressions, reasonable oil use, etc. That said, even if it's still "healthy" at the end of this season it'll be replaced. Maybe a bit off topic, but by your definition I may not be one of "the good guys" since I've chosen not to replace a healthy engine simply because the paper that came with it says 1,500 as opposed to 2,500. On the topic of pilot training, I agree that the practice of having a "veteran skydiver pilot" ride for a couple of trips, and calling them "trained" is not sufficient. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I'm a DZO, and with one high time 182. When my A&P/IA says "You know, it would be a good idea to..." I say, let's do it. For instance we replaced all pulleys, and control cables last winter. I also comply with my insurance requirements with regard to pilot training. The very same day that I'm required to comply with Part 135 is the day the shingle comes down. My guess is that only a very small handful of full time "large DZs" would remain. I could charge $50 per slot, and $500 per tandem, and it still wouldn't be a worthwhile venture for me. Obviously I don't think that forcing skydiving ops to part 135 is the answer. That said, there are way to many aircraft accidents in this industry. I've also said, and will say again here that "I don't expect to die doing what I do, but if I do it'll more than likely be in an airplane crash, not the skydive." In the end you have to draw a line in the sand. With regard to driving cars, if we reduced the maximum speed limit to 30 mph and forced compliance, the 40,000 + highway deaths each year in this country would all but be eliminated. This is not a compromise we're willing to make to save the lives of 40,000 people each year. I guess my point is to be careful what you wish for, you just may get it. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I just figured out the other day that Dos Equis, directly translates to Two X, hence the logo "XX". I do really like Dos Equis Amber. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I don't think that this is as much of an issue with Static Line/IAD students/DZs. I'm still old school to the point that until you're "A qualified" you're a student, and will be supervised and jumping with a Coach, or once in a while a D license holder. With the SL/IAD progression, few students have completed their A Card in the required 25 jumps, so just as well be accomplishing objectives and learning as opposed to simply jumping out of an airplane and living to do it again IMO. I don't honestly know that our students generally even know that there's such a thing as "A qualified" which to me means that they've done everything , save send USPA their paperwork and money. I had one student who lives here, go to Florida and do his AFF, then make some 10 "self supervision jumps". He came back home, and got with us to complete his student progression, I asked to see his A license card and as I remember he either didn't have one, or it was blank other than his name at the top. He spent in Florida what it would have cost him to complete the whole progression with us, and had to do 15 or so Coach jumps to complete his card/license. IMO "cleared to self supervision" seems to be a way to let students jump when short on instructional staff to work with them. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

How do the Sigma canopies open? Are they consistently slow, similar to Icarus, fast, or inconsistent? Anyone willing to admit changing line type on a Sigma canopy to something other than Dacron? That said, it's generally not that simple. You could slow the deployment with a slightly larger slider, but now you're really screwing with canopy design, etc. I agree, I'd rather jump Icarus even if you prefer the Sigma flight characteristics to get away from the tension knot issue. I have over 1500 jumps on Icarus tandem mains (zero malfunctions), and could count on one hand the number of times (actually I think once) I've seen a tension knot, and the canopy was open and flying, just cleared it with steering toggle. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I have around 1600 tandems spread over 9 years, and unfornatially (for the purpous of this conversation) have yet to need to deploy a reserve. I have asked around in these forums, and talked with someone, can't remember the name, who said that he'd been involved in testing a few of the tandem reserves. His opineon was that the Precision TR375 was one of the best, and his favoriate. Now, I've seen one deploied (from video guy position) after cutting away a line over. I guess it's obviousl that this was a slow deployment going from little/no speed. They were loaded in the in the low 400 lb range. The flair was "mushy", toggle preassure was obviously heavy as compared to an Icarus 330/365, but not at all unmanagable by one person. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Doesn't that go without saying? Any guy who'd rather not have the strippers is 1. Lying 2. Gay For the most part I understand that the stripper option isn't going to happen. I generally ask for a bouquet of beer. Best wishes, and good luck Dave! Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Eclipse with Precision TR375 is 525 lbs Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I guess I should have said, "I paid $1000 for a good EZ384, and $500 for a 20 year old 360 reserve. Did I get screwed?" I've noticed posts where newbie skydivers have purchased gear, then ask if they got a deal, or screwed. Folks then respond "you should have asked first." I think I'll just post the stuff on ebay with a starting number I can live with and see what happens. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

We had Mark "Shoobie" Knutson out to train us when we got our Eclipse ratings, and bought our first rig from him. It was interesting to talk with him about the certification testing. Like you said, after they'd passed they kept going adding weight and speed. He said the thing was landing so hard that the weight was burring itself in the ground. I'd like to be there just to see the Casa passing over at 300', 250 mph, and see the thing open and land. Most likely a short canopy "ride"! Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Anyone have a good feel for used tandem canopies/gear value? What's a good EZ384 worth? Man: 01-2001, fabric looks good, brand new dacron line set. I didn't realize until I looked at the UTP web site that they still sell the EZ tandem mains, current list $3,400. Model:VTC-5 Serial: VS384-001292 Manufactured: 01-2001 PN:SVSO384P02 How about a PD360 reserve, manufactured in 1986? How about an Astra set up for tandem, manufactured 1999? I just purchased another Eclipse tandem rig to replace one of my older tandem rigs. I'm either going to sell the extra parts, or put it together in our "old rig", and sell it as a complete rig. My old Eclipse harness/container has a fair bit of life in it, had been maintained well, etc. I just found a "deal", and am upgrading. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

The BSRs do not speak to tandem into a level 1 or open field, so as far as USPA goes you're cool to do the demo. I asked Jim Crouch about it a few years ago, and he replied with a cut/paste of the BSRs you noted in your post. The FAA is a whole-nother-issue. You can play it a couple of ways, either talk to your FSDO contact, and explain that you're complying with USPA rules, and if you have a good relationship it may be ok. All perticipants are supposed to sigh the FAA paperwork before the jump, and list experience. The FAA paperwork is very specific regarding experience, so you can choose to read it as "Pilot in command" with regard to required experience. As mentioned, there is also the issue with the manufacturer, you should get their permission as well (good luck). It seems to me like the UTP user agreement has a note about paying UTP $10,000 each time you jump with a student under the age of 18, or something to that affect, there may also be something regarding demonstration jumps. I own Eclipse gear, so there's no manufacturer to ask. I have done a couple of Level1/Open Field demos with a first time tandem student, not insured, and not within the city limits of The City of Wichita Kansas. Another issue may be insurance. You will not be able to purchase insurance. Insurance Technologies will not cover a tandem demo with a student. Something else to consider. The city of Wichita Kansas actually has an ordinance requiring insurance, and a permit from the city for any demonstration skydive conducted within the city limits. This may be very unique, I haven't researched other municipalities. The insurance policy is to include the City of Wichita as Co-Insured. You could go for it and claim ignorance if you hurt someone or otherwise get charged with some infraction. Claiming ignorance it a fairly poor defense option. http://www.wichitagov.org/NR/rdonlyres/2A442F2A-D4EF-4771-BCAB-CB784E0BADFE/0/parachute_skydive_06d.pdf http://www.wichitagov.org/NR/rdonlyres/81CD7B13-F67A-45AA-9941-D18CC5097349/0/parachute_skydive_license_06f.pdf Feel free to PM, or email if I can help. I tried to not incriminate myself (very much) in writing on a public forum with this post. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ