skydived19006

One thing to keep in mind with the full flight canopy on opening, is that it's harder to clear line twists. If you get your knees out of the breeze (stand up in the harness) the wind vain affect is negated, and it'll untwist. Also, you can stick an arm and leg out to use the wind, as you come around, pull in, and stick the other side out. We tie the steering lines into the center Ds with bands, in 4000 to 5000 tandems, we've had one line over. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I own a dropzone in Kansas, and the DZ does three to five demos a year. Last year we did three on the 4th, I jumped two of them. For the most part I don't do free demos unless one of the jumpers arranges it and pays for the airplane. We jump at one guys house for Christmas, etc. Kansas being Kansas, we do about 50% of what's scheduled. Of the calls I get most people just can't justify the $1000 +/- price tag. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

http://www.tandemrs.com/ Tandemrs as mentioned earlier appears to be a descent solution for the pitfalls of credit card processing. They charge a set up fee, then eigher $2 per tandem, or $95 flat monthly rate. And damned if it even allows the DZO to set a deposit fee. I looked at Skydive City who uses the service, they charge $25 for the deposit as opposed to a 100% up front. Interesting, and nothing like Proskydiving, or Skyride. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Browser problem? They lined up for me (attached). Some of these "points" are pushing paranoia in my opinion. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Either way, name change or not, listing all DZs who are not in business with ProSD is not good for the sport and is against what he has said; the whole for the good fo the sport routine. Promoting DZs is one thing, but actively listing DZs who are not in business with you is another. I don't know that I'd see it that way as a know nothing first jump customer. I think that I'd assume the links to be supportive as opposed to negative. If it were intented to be a slam the offended DZs would/should object, it would be more obvious, and why provide the link? I "slam" Skyride in a warning on my web site, but I sure as hell do not provide a link to 1800skyride! My warning regarding Skyride is far from "We don't participate in the Skyride network" with an active link. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

But, on your website you incinuate that non-Proskydiving DZs or just that....not professional. It is not directly stated, but it is the way it looks, especially to non-skydivers who don't know any better. Yes, it can be argued that you are merely stating that these DZ's are not part of your network, but let's face it....that's not the case and that's not what is happening. Your website goes as far as listing (blacklisting in the eyes of non-skydivers) all DZs who are not in business with you and label them as "Non PRO Skydiving Dropzones". How does that look to outsiders? I'm all about making a buck, but not at the expense of others, especially in a sport/activity that I love. Not only are you helping some DZs, you are hurting MOST DZs. So what is the point of listing DZs that are not in business with you? Edit: Added screen capture Is this an issue of semantics whether intentional or not? Maybe a change in the header to these links such as "Non proskydiving.com network participating DZs"? Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Spence, I think it's just the opposite, they think that everyone else is out to get them. They get on board with booking agents out of fear as opposed to thinking "Wow, this is like free money! All I have to do is (bend over and) pick it up!" Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

According to your website, it's 20%, unless that DZ maintains a link to PROskydiving, then it's 15%. I don't see requiring participating DZs to put up a link as a deal breaker, they can bury it or hide it just like Proskydiving does. I will reiterate my point regarding the requirement of 100% payment at time of reservation, that's not industry standard, but is obviously designed to give Doug his percentage cut of the whole $200 as opposed to 15% of $50. Did I say or hear "Predatory" somewhere previously in this thread? My opinion is that competing DZs would be better served by cooperating with one another as opposed to the dog eat dog model. Doug here is simply praying on this mentality. The three DZs in Kansas do cooperate, that being the case more than likely we'll all three come to the same conclusion that what Doug is offering is not worth $30 per reservation. We're all three principled enough to say, "If it costs me a handful of students to stand my ground, then so be it." Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I spend less than $500 a year in pay per click ads. I started the pay per click ads to counter the Skyride PPC ads. Yes, $100,000 a year would go a long way in a market the size of Wichita, problem is that my DZ doesn't do a much more than that gross annually. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

That's an expensive nut to crack! I could spend $100,000 in a small market like Wichita on TV, Radio, billboards, whatever, and there would still be a large percentage of the population who would say "I didn't even know you could do that around here." I don't think that there's much general interest in funding national advertising. Just look at what a controversy USPA spending $50,000 a year is/was. One man's opinion, I'd rather send additional dollars to USPA for marketing then Doug in Il. In the end, I'll do neither, and stay local. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Someone also has to MAKE money from marketing. If I were a DZO and I was going to pay someone for marketing I would rather give it to someone who is going to keep it in the sport versus an outsider. I am a DZO, and I do market for my business. I do not advertise nationally though, just stick to a 100 +/- radius. Most "advertising" such as web sites, and phone book ads are not really advertising in a true sense in my opinion as they're aimed at people who've already decided to skydive. Some of my pay-per-click ads come up for searches like "entertainment wichita" which are designed to move people toward skydiving. I also have a small billboard on a busy nearby road which generates new student traffic. Again, I'd prefer to do it myself as opposed to sending the money to Illinois, and hoping that Doug will do it for me somehow. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Oh I see it now. It's a half truth, it was right there in front of my nose all the time, just camouflaged as text as opposed to a link. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I don't question your reputation nor honesty Doug. I personally do not see the advantage, or that this system is producing customers who are not already in the market, maybe that'll change with future marketing. That said, someone has to pay for marketing, whether it's the DZO directly or through you by sharing his student revenue with you. This is America and as of now it's still basically a free market economy. That said, as long as you're not lying, cheating, etc., I say go for it. If you can convince your customers that what you're doing is of value to them, then I guess that's what the whole free market thing is about. I still can not find a link from the Proskydiving page for any particular DZ pointing to that DZs web site. I must be missing it, maybe a screen shot with an arrow for me would help me find it? I can't prove a negative, but you can prove me wrong by pointing it out to me. That's how it works at home between my wife and I, I can't find anything around the house. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

In my opinion you should never pay for a link simply for the SEO, other than to potentially provide a reciprocal link. That said, I did send Jan Meyer $24 for an annual Basic Plus listing on her wheretojump.com site. I don't know if it helps me or not, regardless I don't mind "donating" $24 a year for the maintenance of that site. http://www.wheretojump.com/ks/ Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

First: I am a DZO. Second: I actually spent the time to fairly thoroughly read through all four pages of this string. Third: I agree with virtually everything that Dave has written here. Fourth, a few of my thoughts: A very quick litmus test I made was to debunk Doug’s statement that the customer could click through to the DZ at anytime form Proskydiving.com. I could find nowhere on Proskydiving.com where a customer could click through to a participating DZ. Ironically, the Proskydiving web site visitors can click directly through to non participating DZs (like mine). Also, I looked at a handful of participating DZs home web sites (had to google search, couldn’t click through from Proskydiving). What I found was that no participating DZ had a link to Proskydiving.com, they do not want their customers booking through Proskydiving.com, at least once the customer is already at “the right web site.” My point is that Proskydiving does not want “their customers” to defect to the real DZ web site, and the DZO does not want to pay Proskydiving to process “his customers.” It’s a parasitic relationship, not mutually beneficial. Also, Proskydiving does not seem to offer an option for DZOs to book through them, but only take a $50 (or whatever) deposit. Why? In my opinion, reducing the Proskydiving transaction to $50 would also reduce their cut to 25% of a full cost transaction. I’d be interested to know how many DZO require 100% at the time of reservation when booking directly. I like Dave’s thoughts regarding a flat fee, plus actual credit card processing fees service. With this model the DZO would benefit from referring his customers to the booking/credit card processing guy, and the booking guy would benefit by directing questions to the DZO by listing the web site, and phone number. Seems like a potential “win-win” to me. Problem is that the dollars moving to the booking guy are a whole lot smaller, they seem to like the parasite model better for obvious reasons. I would seriously consider using the afore mentioned business model if, but only if at this point in my business it relieved me of having a person on my end answering the phone. That solution does not exist! Many of our customers, even in today’s cyber space environment still want to have the phone conversation. If I’m going to talk to them anyway, I’d just as well take care of the booking, deposit, etc at that time. I do not compete in my market, the closest DZ is 125 miles away, and I’m within 10 miles of Wichita KS. I do my own search engine optimization (SEO), and have a google rating of 3, which happens to be the same rating Proskydiving has. Any potential skydiving customer in the Wichita area doing a web search will find me. Actually, Proskydiving does not show up on the first two pages with common searches through Yahoo, or Google, not that they can’t eventually perform, wheretojump.com performs very well. I wonder if Jan Meyer has any plans of starting a booking and e-commerce service, oh the irony! Phreezone has very good points regarding credit card processing, protecting that information, and compliance. I do not do e-commerce. I take deposit information over the phone. That said, I’m still pushing a very grey area because I write the information down, put in a book, and carry it around until the weekend. I can only process credit cards at the DZ, where the machine, and the land line are. If that book gets lost, and falls into the wrong hands, I’m in a word of preverbal shit! Long-short my opinion, and to the original topic: Proskydiving.com is an above board version of Skyride. From a business standpoint, the Skyride boys have to fund a boiler room full of phone answerers, Proskydiving only has to maintain a web site, and count money! Martin Myrtle DZO, Booking agent, web site guru, advertising exec, and “Permanent Latrine Orderly” Air Capital Drop Zone Wichita Kansas Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I disagree, if 90% of the membership voted but as with the majority of those who now vote made their choices on a "beauty contest" basis the outcome would be no different. "Beauty contest" as in, 'I've heard of that guy', 'I saw a picture of that chick in Parachutist', 'I've jumped out of that dude's airplane.' One reason that there are so many DZOs on the BOD is that the DZOs have a larger interest in the organization. Obviously, the majority of fun jumpers don't give a care about USPA. One thing that many fun jumpers like about skydiving is that they can get away from their day to day political BS lives. Edit to add: They don't give a shit about Skyride either. The voters of one region even placed a DZO on the BOD who's in bed with Skyride (correct me if I'm mistaken!). The argument that more uninformed people voting doesn't hold water with me! Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I wonder (but not enough to research) if when a kid gets hurt in a dirt bike accident, or adult for that matter if they go after the manufacturer. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I know they just changed the rules to, you have to be 18 to drive on the top circuit. But there are kids under 18 going faster then 30 in race cars across this country and im guessing their parents had to sign waivers????Why does that work and are waivers don't? Just so you know I think it should be 18 to jump. One argument seems to be that there's no way to ease into skydiving. Kids are allowed to drown while scuba diving, but people think that all kids swim and accidents can happen. As with racing, the kids may have started out on a 10 mph electric scooter, and worked their way up to 60 plus in a go cart. Everybody drives. Skydiving on the other hand for most who'd end up on a jury is simply stupid, and only for someone with a death wish. With that perspective, you're obviously endangering a child, etc. Booth also had a good point regarding underage girls and tandem skydiving. Tandem skydiving obviously requires close proximity. One 14 year old girl making the accusation "That guy was feeling my boobies." and you'll find yourself in a world of shit regardless what may or may not have happened. There obviously have been, are a handful of TIs out there who have done such things, they're required to molest adults as it now stands. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Anyone remember what happened to music sharing when a few folks were hit with law suits? I'm interested in seeing how the SDAZ v SR thing washes out. If it were me suing SR, I'd go ahead and throw in area DZOs who accept the certificates, it's pretty much free to add names. Once a handful of DZOs have to hire lawyers, just watch the rest run like rats from a sinking ship. As you note Lou, these DZOs will not be convinced with logic, but hit em in the wallet, or make the threat very real and shit will happen. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Simply because they already have taken a stance, and a retraction at this point could be construed as endorsement. So, as it stands with the USPA "endorsing" 16 year olds, the USPA is on the "list to sue" anytime someone of less than legal majority gets hurt. As I see it, you can't be half pregnant, it needs to either be Legal Age of Majority, or be mute and get out of the argument all together. My Participation Agreement has a list of names including my wife and one Tandem instructor. One of the active IAD instructors asked me once about being included on that list of names. My response was "You're covered in the general language as an Instructor. That list of names come law suit time will serve as a "who to sue list", are you sure you want to have your name on that list?" He decided it was better left as is. Sometimes it's best to simply get out of the argument. Were USPA to remove any language related to minimum age, my DZs policy would not change. That said, my kids might skydive at an age less than 18/16. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Granted, I've been lazy of late and haven't researched any decisions made by USPA at the last BOD meeting. Was any action taken on this issue?... Anyone?... Anyone? Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Only a sLyride supporter would say such a thing! Not necessarily, I've been saying that for years. It's the dumb fuck DZOs who trade with SR who are the enablers. How damn hard should it be for the DZOs in any given region to get to gather and simply set a date to quit SR? It'll never happen though. I can't get over the irony of people who are otherwise extremely honest, and upstanding trading with SR. These people would never employ the lying, dishonesty, and downright steeling that SR does. Yet, they have no issue with lying, and steeling from their customers through segregate. The SR DZOs are fucking the customers, but using the collective SR dick to do it. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

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Once, Yogi's (Berra) wife Carmen asked, "Yogi, you are from St. Louis, we live in New Jersey, and you played ball in New York. If you go before I do, where would you like me to have you buried?" To this, Yogi replied, "Surprise me." “You should always go to other people's funerals. Otherwise they won't come to yours.” Yogi I attended a Baptist funeral a couple of years ago, it was the most uncomfortable funeral I’ve ever sat threw. The minister literally spent half an hour attempting to save soles. He kept asking everyone to put your hand up if you’ve been saved, if you haven’t been saved, if you’d like to be saved, etc., etc., etc. I’m agnostic (probably more like a chicken shit atheist), I sooo much had to resist the urge to put my hand up, and start making my way to the isle. Once there announce “Brother, I just wanted to let you know that I’ll be in the parking lot with a cooler full of ice cold beer! There’s plenty to go round!” I would have done it too, I had the beer in the cooler, were it not out of respect for my wife’s friend (mother in the casket). I also refuse to “change my opinion” of someone after passing. I tend not to repeat clichés, saying nothing instead, or a simple “I/we love you.” Even then only if it’s true. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ