Grogs

Actually, this might sound weird, but while I'm at work I normally hope that the weather outside is crappy. If it's a nice day I'll probably end up spending entirely too much time standing out on the back porch at work staring up at the sky and never get any work done. Also, I'd end up taking off early every other afternoon to go to the DZ and make even less money than I already do, so I wouldn't be able to afford to jump.

I'm one of the lucky guys who lives in 'The Virginias'

I don't think the weight is that big of a factor for your AFF dives. The JM's have hundreds or thousands of jumps, and they do a normally do a great job of staying with the students. It'll probably be more of an issue when you get off student status and you're jumping with other jumpers who aren't as good at matching fall rates as the AFF JM's, but that can be fixed with the right combination of arching, weights, and jumpsuits.

I think Don Kellner (did I spell that right?) in Chicago just passed 30k recently. I know there was another guy that was neck-and neck with him. That's a hell of a lot of jumps!

No flames, but like I said I'd like to hear the real story here. The only source of info we have to go by is the article written by the whuffo press, which I have to consider bad journalism even for a non-skydiving article. The only person they even interviewed was the jumper (and her lawyer). She pretty well trashes the S&TA... did they even try and contact him for his side of the story? Even a 'Mr. Soandso refused to comment' would have been something. I've jumped in winds higher than I should have, but usually in those times, it was the DZO and other more experienced jumpers saying 'Well, it might not be a good idea, but I'll leave it up to your judgement.' I know there are some unethical people out there, but I think most JM's/DZO's would poke and prod someone to jump in winds they thought were too strong. If so, shame on them. With those kind of practices that DZ probably won't stay around too long. The article sites meteorological evidence that the winds were too strong, but were they when the plane was actually taking off? We all know just how accurate the weather guys can be. Were they really that strong when she took off? Here's what I'm talking about: My DZO was the ground controller (i.e. the guy with the radio) for George Bush's AFF level 1 jump (George Bush was a former US President for those foreign readers who may not know). They actually ended up putting him out in 30mph winds, through no fault of their own. As my DZO tells it, while the plane was on jump run the winds on the ground suddenly gusted from a reasonable level to around 30mph. He walked over to the radio, picked up the mike to say 'Abort' and at that moment the pilot announced 'Jumpers away' so the only thing he could do was talk him in as best as he could. Imagine if he had pounded in (well, harder than he did)... there would probably be some USPA BSR's right now stating that NO jumps can be made if the winds are over 5kts or something ridiculous like that.

The 500 figure is for Tandem Instructors. They also have to have at least 3 years in the sport. AFF Instructors have to have 6 hours of freefall time. By my estimates, you could reach that figure with about 350 jumps assuming you were jumping from 14K or so on every jump. For the jumpers from England or Washington State who have to make low level jumps all the time, probably many more than that.

Just 2 things really. Relax and listen to your JM's. You should have no problem with the relax part since you've done the HALO's so it's not completely new to you. If you can relax on the dive that will fix about 90% of the common problems for AFF students. Also, try and do more than 1 dive a day since the second and successive dives of the day almost always go better than the first. Your JM is going to be a very experienced jumper, with anywhere in the neighborhood of 400-many thousands of jumps. They're not going to steer you wrong, and they'll be able to diagnose your problems individually. Since the AFF program is pretty standardized and the maneuvers they're teaching you are very basic, there really doesn't seem to be a lot of variation from 1 JM to the next. Little things maybe, like maybe doing a right turn first instead of a left, or a diving exit instead of a poised, but probably not anything outright wrong. Oh yeah, 1 more piece of advice I guess. Try and hang around the DZ after hours and drink a beer or 2 with the regulars (or whatever, you don't have to drink beer). This is a great opportunity to get to know the people you'll be sharing the DZ with and while you're just hanging out you'll probably hear all sorts of stories about jumping and what to do or what not to do. You'll find you learn a lot that way.

Well, in the US, all sport jumpers are required to have a square canopy, although round reserves are still permitted. About the only US jumpers who still use rounds are the military and people using them for emergencies (pilots and such).

It's definitely possible for a canopy to collapse. I was looking through the fatality reports from the past 5 years on skydivenet.com and it seems like in the past few years at least one person a year dies because their canopy suddenly collapsed at 100' or so because of turbulence, dust devils, etc. and didn't have a chance to reinflate. That doesn't really sound like what they're describing in this case though since those people most likely fell straight down. I can imagine a situation where a canopy hits turbulence and suddenly snaps into line twists, causing it to spiral, but it would almost have to be a fully elliptical for that to happen and I highly doubt she was jumping a fully elliptical canopy with 28 jumps. My best guess until I hear a better account is she had either an unstowed brake line or a line-over and failed to take action. I'm also kind of curious who gave her the tandem rides? Not the same DZ I hope. I certainly wouldn't even THINK about selling the girl a tandem ride knowing her tendency to sue.

So does anyone know the real story about what happened? The press did it's typically terrible job of reporting it. The first statement makes it sound like she never even opened her chute and was lucky to be alive: Then she goes on to say: So what was the deal? Is this a line-over? Or an unstowed brake line maybe? If so it sounds like the problem is her failure to react properly, not the weather. The only other possibilities I can think of from that description are a low turn (i.e. pilot error) or turbulence which actually made part of the canopy collapse (this is the ony one I can think of that would have anything at all to do with the weather). In any case, I definitely agree with Froggie on this one. With 28 jumps, she should have at least had SOME clue what she was doing. Definitely enough to take responsibility for herself. When I first got my license, we had some pretty windy days and I jumped anyway. Lots of other people around my level chose not to because the winds were too high. I made quite a few jumps in the high winds until on one I twisted my ankle and ended up on crutches for about a month. MY choice to jump - MY ankle got hurt - MY fault.

Assuming you're a fairly light guy, you shouldn't have too much trouble working your way down. My last canopy was a PD-230, and I moved down from that to a Silhouette-170. I had jupmed a few times on a 190 as a student, so I knew it wasn't too radical of a change. Go to something in the 1.1-1.2 range, and demo it a few times, preferably on a moderate wind day at first, and then try it again on a no wind day. Be prepared to PLF it, and if possible, get someone to watch you and critique your landing, or even better video tape it. If you can land that with no problem on a no-wind day, you're probably safe to move down to the next canopy size.

Yeah brother, it happens. I've had a day where I even made a few jumps from altitude, but just didn't feel like making more and quit for the day. In my case, I think I had just let some things from my personal life come to the DZ and interfere with the skydiving (can't believe I let anything interfere ). In your case though, it sounds like it was your circumstances. 5000' isn't really enough altitude to do anything in freefall - maybe exit a 4-way and then track away, or a couple of flips. Also, you weren't jumping your own rig and the one you were jumping was a friggin' manta. I think honestly the only situations I'd jump a manta in now are if I had just had a reserve ride and needed to get back up in a hurry or if the airplane I was on was crashing. When you're doing a hop'n'pop, nost of the fun is in the canopy ride, and there just isn't much fun in a manta. If you wrap the steering line around your wrist 3-4 times, then bury it as hard as it will go you can get it to turn at 5 degrees per second or so. And also as mentioned earlier there's the social aspect. If I just went to the airport, jumped out of a plane, and came home every weekend, I think I'd get bored of it. As much of a rush as skydiving can be, it's the people you meet doing it and the fun things you do together that makes this sport so addictive. So my advice is, go get some shuteye (if you're not already). I bet you'll have a lot more fun next time you're out at the DZ getting some altitude with your own chute on your back.

I've never run into this in my (very limited) experience. It does seem to me though that a DZ would make more money in the long run to pass the student (assuming they did what they were supposed to). It seems when the student fails some would get frustrated and maybe leave the sport, as opposed to graduating AFF and making lots and lots of fun jumps, which will be more money in the long run.

Hey gman, I think you'll find a lot of people have had this problem. I know of a couple at my DZ, and I have seen (I think) 3 people here on DZ.com talking about the same problem. Here's my advice (the same advice my DZO gave a fellow at my DZ after his 5th Level 4 jump): Go visit a wind tunnel. I see you live in California, so for the price of 1 or 2 level 4 repeats you can go to Las Vegas and spend 10-15 minutes in the tunnel (the equivalent of at least 10-15 jumps!). I think you will also get much more out of it too. You can have someone critique you and get you fixed in a low-stress environment. Everyone I know who has done this passed Level 4 the next time through.

Oh boy! I hope she doesn't mention my little trip to Orange.

Wow... That's um, um... impressive

Actually, if you weigh 170, you're probably going out the door at close to 200lbs, so the wing loading would be around .8 (200 lbs/250 sq ft). Did you ask Carrie for advice on how to compute your wing loading? Sorry, I just couldn't let that one slip by. As for the canopy stuff, I couldn't agree with you more. I've been having a lot of fun with my canopy lately. I've found out how much fun it can be to crank a toggle all the way so that I'm turning so fast my feet tingle, or stall my canopy out and let it reinflate. All up high of course. Edited by Grogs on 3/29/01 05:38 AM.

Hey Carrie: I wouldn't worry so much about 1800'. Yeah, it's low, but remember, they're not terminal when they leave the plane. Falling from 1800' takes a little under 10 seconds (assuming belly flying) at terminal velocity, but it's closer to 15 seconds when you actually start at 1800'. 15 seconds is actually a little bit longer than you have pulling at 2500' normally. Of course the chutes won't open as quickly subterminal, so it might be a little nervewracking to jump a spectre or something like that. As for the issue of wearing an AAD if you have a tendency to pull low, personally I'd take the AAD. Which is worse, having an AAD and getting into a 2-out scenario where you might die, or a no-pull where you will die. Of course I doubt that a person who liked doing intentional low pulls would see it that way, but that's my personal opinion.

I feel the same thing too. I haven't seen the falling dream in ages. Psychologists say that the falling dream represents a fear of being out of control. I no longer see falling as a lack of control. I feel a sense of total control while falling actually, so I guess it makes sense I don't have it anymore. If I did have it, I'd probably start doing backflips or something. And Kerb, if by stuck at level 4 you mean you've had to repeat it several times, I would highly recommend a trip to the closest wing tunnel. As expensive as they are, 10 minutes in a wind tunnel is considerably cheaper than another AFF level 4 and will probably do a whole lot more good.

Don't worry Pammi. If you haven't already, you'll be able to jump fast enough to have another problem... money. My record so far is 8 jumps in one day (early January!), so even assuming I can only do that many a day in the summer, 8 jumps a day is 16 jumps a week and 64 jumps in a weekend, which is well over half my take home pay.

It was pretty funny actually. I met him at the bonfire Saturday night, so I might have been imbibing a little bit.

My personal lowest was probably just above 2000', in the saddle just below. I normally pull right around 3K, but on this particular 9-way, I seemed to be dodging people at pull time, so I tracked a bit further before dumping. I also take offense about that comment about the low tracker being screwed up. If you're a naturally fast faller, i.e., a dense person, there's no way you can be expected to stay up fall rate with some long, thin person with a baggy jumpsuit. I fall into the second category, and while I can arch hard enough to get down to a much larger person even without weights, I'm usually in a hard arch and that person is falling flat as a board, so when I go to track off, I just come out of an arch and sail above him, while he's almost falling at his tracking fall rate already. And in any case, I know lots of people who can out-track me. I don't think it means I suck - I would expect someone with hundreds or thousands more jumps to be a better tracker.

I've never had a skydiving dream about me burning in, but I've had a couple about my friends burning in. I guess that shows where my real fears are at.

LOL. If you're still thinking clearly enough to use a spell checker and all that other stuff, you can't be all that drunk Hmm, what comes to mind. So many choices... I was out drinking with a friend one night. I was really wasted, but he was only mildly buzzed (he was driving). I don't remember much of the night, but we pulled into a fast food restraunt on the way home to get something to eat. My friend was telling me about it the next morning. Apparently, I was walking to the bathroom and I passed a girl, who proceeded to slap the crap out of me. She then walked up to my friend and said "You can tell your friend to kiss my ass!" and stormed off. As near as we could figure, I walked by and used my famous drunken pick-up line: "Hey, wanna ****" Despite the joke to the contrary, it has never worked for me

I'm sure it's a judgement call. If you see someone heading downwind at 200', then they do a 90, followed by a 270 - it was probably a hook turn. I think some places actually go so far as to say No turns under X feet, period, but again, someone is going to have to see it and determine if you were really below 500' or not. [rant] IMO, the biggest problem with the 'No Hook Turns' policy is, that while it'll stop the guy with 1000's of jumps from pounding in on his Extreme-VX 69 (primarily because he'll go find another dropzone), a lot of the people who actually get hurt doing hook turns are low timers who just made a mistake. Either they were trying to make it back into the wind, avoid another canopy, or whatever and start a low toggle turn. Most of these people don't even realize they're doing a low hook turn until the people are standing over them asking if they're ok. What is needed is not more policies on what you're not allowed to do, but better educated jumpers. [/rant]