frost

LOL funny. I guess I am wrong by default then. But has it never happened before where a well respected and widely accepted theory has been proven wrong? In case it wasnt clear - i am simply raising a discussion here, not trying to defend or disprove anyone's position. I have considered all the points made here, and they make sense, no doubt. I have taken this point as a given when i first read Brian Germain's book and listened to Scott Miller's courses. Whenever a discussion was presented - i'd stick to this point of view. But then i started thinking and questioning it. For the last year or so i have not been a fan of these points of view. I may be wrong - and that's ok. I am not an expert, I have no background in aerodynamics, but even experts and well respected scientists make mistakes. Questioning the experts and thinking about stuff and not taking a theory as an axiom is a way to advance yourself and possibly the discipline.

I dont see how that is a valid example here... well... yes :) if you can get the canopy to open in the first place :)) (hey, what kind of answer did you expect with a question like that?) let's just say 20 mph. I think it will add speed to the way the canopy will dive in the first second or two of the turn.

that's pretty much EXACTLY what i was saying in my original post (but in other words :) Canopy will fly the same in an "air mass", but NOT in relationship to the ground.

I appreciate the input, of course. But would be curious to hear what it's based on (experience wise). If it's jsut based on Scott Miller's camps/brian germain books, then i read/heard it already... I'd love to hear from someone with educational background in aerodynamics

That's consistent with what i was saying At its terminal velocity the canopy wont pick up any more airflow over the wing from the wind. But it seems that the wind will add more speed (airflow) to a canopy that hasnt reached the maximum possible velocity in a turn, up to the moment when the canopy reaches its terminal velocity.

This started in a different thread... I think it's an interesting discussion and would love to hear from people with REAL flight or aerodynamics or any other scientific expertise (not looking for the "I jump a lot so i know" type of aurgument here) I strongly believe that wind affects the canopy flight relative to the ground below. From the basic glide to advanced turns, the canopy is affected by winds. I agree with the statement that wind does not affect how the canopy flies, since nothing aerodynamically changes about the wing (unless it distorts or collapses). But it does change how it flies in relationship to the ground. Let's use the example i quoted above, which i think is a very interesting one. Seems to me it has some elements of theory of relativity. The person in the train is walking at the same speed, but is covering different distance in relationship to the absolute object (earth). Same can be applied to the canopy in flight. Your canopy will still have the same speed, but you will fly different in realtionship to the ground. If the wind is 10 mph, you're flying forward at 30 mph, your speed relative to the ground will be 20 mph. That's basic stuff that even students know, right? So is it just my perception that the canopy flies different in turns (relative to the ground) when there are high winds? If it's affected by wind in full flight (again, relative to the ground), why wont it be affected in a turn? When you turn your canopy you are exposing more of your wing to the wind, right? In addition to blowing you off course, the wind makes air move at faster (or slower) speeds over that wing, creating more (or less) lift. Makes sense? So how would the wind not affect the flight RELATIVE to the ground? In conclusion, I am willing to bet a jump that if you turn at the same speed from the same altitude in high winds you will fly into the ground :)

even though this is a clear HIJACK, its an interesting discussion. i will post a separate thread on this, ok? SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

wow...I think you man are doin' something wrong... I start at 500ft for a 180turn under my katana 107 loaded 1.8....... and I have a good recovery arc and nice 180-200ft swoops..w/out havin' to plan too soon.. gee, thanks for your input SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

I had a chance to put 7 jumps on a Neos-104 this weekend. i was very happy with: Its awesome Crossfire2-like openings. Soft, on-heading and very predictable. Its very light front riser pressure, also similar to X-fire2. Its turns, which were much like a Velo - crisp and fast. I was left indifferent to: The way it dives and recovers, which is much like a Velo, and not like a VX. I started my turns 100 feet higher then on my VX. This of course is a personal preference. I was left unhappy with: The way the canopy didnt like to be forced out of a dive. Neos seemed to lose a lot of energy when rears were applied to help the recovery (sling shot effect), resulting in poor distance performance. My thoughts: I think Neos is a great canopy! It has the potential to perform as well (or better) as current X-braced canopies, ONCE the pilot discoveres the proper technique. I havent had a chance to do it, but i am sure others already have or will have soon enough. Due to my lack of jumps and technique on Neos, i didnt get as much distance i get on a slightly lighter loaded VX-111. My x-braced experience: 750 jumps on VXs (90% on 111 and 10% on 96) 150 on Xaos (120) 50-60 on velocities (120, 111, 103) Current canopy: VX-111 loaded at about 2.1:1

Crosswind - the best video of all times in my book. Not strictly swooping, but overall In addition to the post above, check out the PST video

There are about 15 Ranch swoopers that would like to know that too, bro! SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

Red/white is Scotty, i think it's two crashes combined... Princess of the Pond has not been nice to him :) Orange canopy is Pia, the freestyle queen. That was a new move she was practicing. Just kidding - she hit the ground first (pretty hard), flipped over and ended up in the water. Some thought she might be dead, but she was jumping the next day. :)

aaahh, some spectacular crashes at the Ranch. http://www.theblueskyranch.com/gallery/canopies

sure, i totally understand. I'll try to get a ground video for you this weekend. May be Johnny has a few of his, but i dont have any of my landings... (with all this editing and uploading i may finally learn how to use the video editing software! :)) i gotta say though the numbers are a bit off in your post. Johnny loads his VX104 at 2.4 and turns from 550-600, i load vx111 at 2.1 and turn it from 550, and my VX96 at 2.4 also turned at 550 just fine I am actually surprised at the reaction - it's only logical to think that pilots would be turning around the same altitude (assuming same canopy type, same type of turn and same MSL offset of the DZ). Would be great to see a vid of someone loaded about the same on the same type of canopy doing the same type of turn and using the same tools (neptune) for comparison. First POV with fish eye is OK - i can tell when the rotation starts :)

Again, i am not "that low". In fact i am not low at all. :) if two people tell you that they start same turn from the same altitude at the same DZ may be they are on to something? Quoteand if you want a answer to your original question, turn the velo higher that your turning your vx. if you loading at 2.0 roughly, turn it at 750 ft to start, then work your way down to the power band, probably 650-750 ft. depending on how you fly, and rate of turn. Cool - thanks for the input. Thats what i was looking for. SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

you cant tell when the rotation starts and when it ends?

i am not really saying anything. I said "no idea". It could be 100 feet, i dont know. To be honest, I fail to see the reasoning behind your line of questioning and how it pertains to the original topic... PM me if you want to talk about the questions you asked more.

no idea... if i had to guess - i'd say 40 feet?

TALK TO SOMEONE well respected and knowledgable ON YOUR DZ instead of asking here. Personal communication about such matters are always best.

DO NOT! So i uploaded 3 files to skydivingmovies.com. I dont know how long it takes to get them approved... but those who cared to see them can take a look later and search for these in the swooping section. One file was renamed swoop2_2.mpg, my user name is frost (this should help with locating them) These are three jumps made on the same day. All turns were initiated at 510-530 feet, all lasted about 5 seconds, counting from initiation to being on heading. All were FAR from being in the corner, perhaps even a bit high, like 10 feet. Not the slowest of turns but definitely what was claimed - 5 sec. In retorspect, as usual, the original topic has mutated, several thread hijack attempts have been made but it's all good

where are you guys located? MSL-wise? I am sure thats where the key is. Ranch is about 300 ft MSL I reviewed a few tapes from my camera and accoring to tape counter an average 270 degree turn from 500-550 feet took me 5 seconds to complete. I'll try to transfer it to my PC tonight. Instruments dont lie. Lets not get into aurguments about neptune/camera lying and human eyes being reliable.

well.. cant aurgue with a neptune. It doesnt lie, unlike human brain or eyes.

Thanks guys. Would try it higher, of course, just wanted an initial point of reference. 550 or even 500 is not at all too low. In fact thats right on the money with that altitude, never in a corner... Turn lasts 5-6 seconds. I can do a fast one from 450, but 550 is just perfect. 750 is good for a semi fast 360, but way to high for a 270. Well may be REALLY slow 270 :) SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

For VX my ideal starting point is 500-550 feet, slow 5-6 second right hand 270 turn with some rear riser input to level it out at the last second. How does Velocity compare? Given the same technique? Thanks in advance SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

what you'll get is the statistics of who owns what LOL SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.