Kamkisky

This aligns with my take. They were checking to see if the money could be useable. The bills as they appear on the FBI table are clearly not useable. No one would think you could walk in a store and spend those bills. This leads me to think there was more to the bills and the rot got scrubbed off revealing what we see. Slim calling a bank -after scrubbing the bills- to see about exchanging the bills only confirms my theory. He knew after the bills came out of the sink he could not go to the store with them. The story sounds to me like after checking other options and considering potential consequences Slim decided a potential reward was the best route. He made the right choice.

I’d love to know Brian’s version. And I’m not casting stones either, I firmly believe way north of 50% of people would try to see if the money was useable.

Can’t agree with this one. If their goal is to preserve evidence you leave it there and call the cops. They took it home. It turns up slightly bleached and with all the rotten edges gone. They didn’t even turn it in until someone told them it could be Cooper’s money, right? That’s reward hunting.

The Ingrams washing the money is a major factor here. Looking at the bills on the table photo, how could any grownup think maybe if we wash it it’d be useable? It’s obviously not useable. Where does this lead us… - Conspiracy land where the Ingrams are somehow in on it or are being used by others - The Ingrams are idiots who thought the money (as seen on the table) was possibly spendable - Or the most likely option IMO, the money had more volume with rotten edges and the Ingrams washed it to see if it was salvageable and took a lot of the rot off during this process. The fact that they lightly bleached it to adjust for the dirt/mold colors tells me they were trying to see if they could make it useable. This lead me to believe the money as we see it on the table is the remnants of the money they found. The Ingrams shrunk the bills by removing rot. If that’s true, the money rotted in situ.

Rubber bands put over a bundle of three or five packets would adjust to the size of the packet. Now we have a timing matter…if the bands are around the bundle for a number of years, and then submerged in water and then subject to the grinding and rolling forces of river water and a sandy bottom…how again are those bands going to remain intact while majority of the size of the bundle is ground off? It just makes no sense. However….if you change the time line by putting the money in the river very early on OR by suggesting the rubber bands on the bundle where newer and more recently put on. For my money Tom is right. The rot is in situ. That’s why the remains of the rubber bands were there but instantly crumbled.

Yesterday I made a connection I don’t think has ever been made. Cooper’ing is fun. DMs. Shards are the rotten edges, what else could they be.

Ryan - check your DMs.

By end over end I’m assuming Fly means the long ways of the bills (the width). If he is taking about the short ways (top to bottom of the bills face as one would read it) that’s a different thing. The bills on the FBI table have missing volume from *all four sides.* The short way (top to bottom) is missing material just like the long ways (left to right). This seems consistent with a river bed tumble. But… How again can rubber bands that have adapted to the size (top to bottom) survive a river ride and sandy river bottom going end over end (width/long ways) tumble for miles that causes all four sides to erode? The direction the rubber bands were placed has eroded too. Why wouldn’t the bundle break up? Are these special rubber bands that after aging, and being tossed in a river and scraped along the sandy bottom have sufficient clapping force to accommodate lost bill material? It’s just a tough sell. It doesn’t make logical sense. I suppose there’s an argument that the bands were new and thus still had the right pressure/clapping force to accommodate the missing top/bottom bill material. It’s a question of residual elasticity. But now we are talking about freshly rubber banded bills…and a ton more assumptions are needed.

Even if I could get to your theory (full disclosure - I can’t), the fact the Ingrams move the money from it’s location, handled it, transported it, washed it (an aggressive action) and let it soak in a bleach bath before rinsing it hurts the cause. The version of the money we see on the FBI table has been through several other processes than money that just rolled along the sandy bottom. Taking a photo of Cooper’s money on the table and comparing to money from a different set of processes is apples to oranges.

I have never seen river rocks that had stripes where they weren’t worn. I suppose there is an argument the river sand is rounded and not as abrasive, but if it was abrasive enough to remove material from all sides of the money…tough sell.

So there is enough friction grinding along the sand (like sandpaper) to remove material from the money, but not the rubber bands? It just doesn’t compute. It makes no sense. Take sandpaper to rubber bands…see what happens. Especially taut rubber bands.

Yeah, simple physics suggests any abrasive force from rubbing along sand would take out the rubber bands along with the rotten edges of the bills. I don’t see how that could even be argued. It’s obvious. Any theory that states the bills rotted elsewhere, then floated downstream has to explain the shards. The rotted edges of the bills would be lost in any river float/sandy bottom theory. Unless the claim is some minor rotting occurred first, then the river ride, then more rotting in place at Tena Bar. That takes out a lot of other theories though and leaves you with the money being somewhere just upstream rotting until it moves to Tena Bar to rot some more…but…how do the rubber bands stay on? Again, it makes no sense. The rubber bands in good condition adjust to the size of the package and when the package volume is reduce the effectiveness of the bands is reduced. How would they survive a river ride after some rotting? The bands would not is the answer. The simplest explanation is someone buried it at Tena Bar. All it requires is a reason, there are no other obstacles. The other transport methods have so many contingencies, it strains the imagination.

“The money was rounded off about 50% around the outside of the packets. I have seen buried money images and it doesn't look as uniformly eroded as TBAR money. The shards don't account for the outer erosion. Palmer suggested tumbling, we don't know for sure but it is consistent with tumbling end over end. The money looks like a wet bundle rolled end over end along a sandy river bottom.” How does the edges of the money get removed by tumbling end over end on the sandy river bottom but the rubber bands survive? That makes zero sense. Your position is the money did not rot in place?

It was commonly used enough for this new transplant family to be BBQing there. There’s literally someone there when the FBI are searching. The beach is accessible by water, everyone talks about the road for some reason. Anyone with the right sized boat can get there without going past a Fazio. I’m not saying it’s for sure he wanted it found. Under the ceremonial theory he might have buried it without the intent it be found. Civilizations across time and the global have ceremonies that from a resource allocation perspective are insane. Burying 6k out of 200k is not outlandish by these standards. Under the FU to the feds theory he’d want it to be found, same for the communication to Tina concept. And no matter where he put it people could say there were a million better spots. I do know this, if I want it to be found on that specific beach but need to be discrete about how I’m doing it, I want it buried just below the surface of the sand too. I’d just setup some gear and slyly get a little hole dug, drop it in, spread some sand and gather my gear and leave over the course of an hour or two. Just a guy out fishing. You could be 30 feet from me and not notice. And what would I expect to happen? I’d expect someone to eventually find it (while I’m long gone), which is exactly what happened. Buried things on beaches get found, happens all the time…it’s the nature of sand. If it was buried in a backyard or field or woods it’d be different. As for the tumbled edges, aren’t those the shards? The money rotted in place, if it rotted somewhere else to the point edges fall off in water there wouldn’t have been shards of all sizes. The tumbling would have washed all that away and you have what the photos show after the Ingrams washed it. The evidence suggests none of the other theories. We have to make those up. We need to invent other people, miracle dredges that are gentle enough for bundles of cash to stay together, money falling from Coopers pocket, paper bags, etc. It’s all made up. We know Cooper had the money. We know the six grand shows up at Tena Bar. We know he was polite to Tina and offered her money. We know the bar is reachable by water and the beach is used for recreation. I see a pattern forming here that requires no inventing things to discern.

Also, money bundles sink. The bottom of the river is littered with debris and trash. It’s not getting far before finding its snag and resting place at the bottom. The money just wouldn’t travel far or last long in the river. It’d of had to of come from just up stream and it would have needed to not be in the water until it floats down. And you need a high enough flood stage (debated) and it’d have to get buried in sand (is that even possible?). That bank money bag isn’t lasting years in the PNW either so it’d have to have been stored in a different bag/container. There's just so many obstacles to the floated down river theory. It’s not overcome-able. Meanwhile, the somebody put it there theory only requires a reason why…the rest of it works just fine. Way less obstacles.

Tena Bar was a well known fishing spot and recreation area. There was a grey bearded dude there fishing when the FBI showed up. It’s anything but one in a million. You put something on a used beach and someone will eventually find it, which is exactly what happened. Also, it wasn’t out at the waters edge, it wasn’t intended to float away. My two cents, it likely took longer to find than Cooper wanted…maybe he didn’t account for the cows and it got stomped down lower than he left it, so it took longer to surface. As for T4T, hell of a coincidence. Then it’s the same amount Tosaw says was offered. Second hell of a coincidence. How many coincidences are we going to over look before we accept the evidence?

If a fantastic suspect arises who is 5’9” or 6’1” I think the vortex can handle it. That’s actually a big range in real life and likely not generally mistakable, but 50 years on we have to use a wide view, and the witnesses had a variance so we are justified in doing so if most other things align. Ultimately though it’s a variable each person gets to set within reason…the FBI can have a standard. Ryan can have a standard. You can have a standard. It’s all good…it really comes down to the rest of a suspect’s case. Braden is tiny and considered a quality suspect…it happens. Does his height help his case, no. Did it prohibit his case being made, no. It’s like eye color or accent, there’s some wiggle room (brown or hazel/Ohio or Kansas).

The funny part is you both think Cooper is within two inches…the margin of error. Cooper is taller than Tina (I fail to see a counter argument), but he isn’t unusually tall for the period 6’2’’ +. The middle range for Cooper is 5’10” - 6’ (where you both have him), not short but not abnormally tall for the era. It’s another Cooper is basically an average dude stat. If we have to lean one way it’s likely taller IMO given witness statements but it’s all in the wash…a 5’9” suspect (barefoot military measurement at 18 or younger) and a 6’1” suspect (in shoes) are within the margin of error. One inch outside the median doesn’t determine Cooper. The argument is upper range or lower range. This reality hurts tall suspects as much as shorter ones. Yeah, there are more short people than tall but the facts we have don’t change. Cooper is likely 5’10”-5’11”. YMMV. Everyone can have their own standard…as long as it is not insane.

Melvin Wilson and a Melvin Fisher Im not familiar with Melvin Cooper? Also, I believe Ryan posted a stat about height guesses generally being within two inches. Posting a screenshot of him guessing Darren’s height within two inches only supports that concept. My two cents…Cooper was taller than Tina. She would have noticed if she was looking him in the eye.

“Cooper knew the plane had fuel. He knew the plane could make it to Mexico. He has the money. He has the chutes. Cooper can utter one sentence and the final piece of his initial plan happens and they go to Mexico. My question to you is simple…why doesn’t he utter that sentence? “ I’m almost with you but I’m still not seeing the answer to this. Why doesn’t Cooper complete his plan? One sentence away…

A coastal route for the Mex/Reno route was a legit option. FACT —— Yes, it’s a legit route for the plane to fly. Cooper thinking it was legit for his purposes is an assumption. Cooper agreeing to it is the counter factual you are just sliding into the factual. He never agreed to that AND he didn’t complain when they went south. Cooper never gave any input for a route other than Mex/Reno. FACT —- Yes, both south (Yuma too). That’s the input. It’s all the input he needed to give. A coastal route for the SF/LA route was a legit option. FACT —- Again, yes for the plane, it is an assumption that Cooper would have accepted a coastal route. Cooper said SF/LA was too small. FACT —-You meant to big and yes, but so what? They went over numerous airports, he was by definition going to have to deny some for some reason. I’m still struggling to live in your theory. Cooper doesn’t initially care about the route because he isn’t going to jump early but go straight to Mexico first. Ok. Got it to this point. Then, for some reason -you have stated miscommunication- Cooper agrees to abandon Mexico and go to Reno. Once Reno is agreed to he decides it’s better to just jump before Reno (good thing he wasn’t on the coast route ehh). Cooper then jumps at random. Here’s what I don’t get…why did Cooper give up on Mexico so easy and allow himself to be forced into a new plan that forces him to do a random jump in Washington (long ways from his initial goal of Mexico)? Cooper knew the plane had fuel. He knew the plane could make it to Mexico. He has the money. He has the chutes. Cooper can utter one sentence and the final piece of his initial plan happens and they go to Mexico. My question to you is simple…why doesn’t he utter that sentence?

“No, that is not the point, you are straw manning, they discussed a coastal path so it was a legitimate route for the plane. You kept denying this.. claiming some specific path from Cooper,, you are wrong.“ It’s a legit route for *the plane* under normal circumstances. Does that mean *Cooper* would have agreed to going west and down the coast? Again, it clearly does not. Thinking Cooper accepts a coastal route is the assumption.

Because NWO discussed a coast route means Cooper would have been ok with it. Does that make logical sense? Of course not. The pilots considered going out the front window too. Maybe Cooper considered sticking his pistol in the cowboy’s face. Lots of people considered doing lots of things..so what? The fact is everything Cooper stated or agreed to is south. That’s irrefutable. Sure, you could fly east first and then south, or west first and then south. They could have flown north out of Seattle too, anything could have happened. What did happen is Cooper stating the plane is to leave Seattle and go to southern destinations, it did. He then jumps at the first sign of civilization, into perfect farmland. Also, I’m lost on your geography. All these mountains are under 150 miles from the coast.

I’ll start here: “To claim by not giving instructions he didn't want to go the coast is an inversion of logic.“ This is your claim just framed in the negative. My claim is Cooper wanted to go south. That means the plane leaves Seattle and flys south. This is the only direction he ever requested or agreed too. The assumption comes in stating Cooper would have been fine with a coastal route (jumping or not)…that’s your assumption. You keep saying Cooper didn’t give a path. Yet he repeatedly states and negotiated a path…all south. I think what you mean is Cooper didn’t specify v23, ok. But he didn’t have to. I’ll give an example of why in a second. Regarding this 150 wide range flying south, to achieve this the crew of 305 would have needed to agree to go mountain top dodging, all of the mountains listed are within the 150 range to the coast. Several significantly closer (like half). To fly south up to 150 miles wide from the coast 305 would be bobbing a weaving through mountains taller than 10k ft. Now…I’m not an aviation expert so maybe this isn’t a problem and they would comfortably do so. But from newbies look it seems problematic to be flying in a dirty configuration, at night in cloud cover, in a jet hovering barely above stall speed while playing pinball with multiple mountains which have unique effects on wind and weather. Maybe I’m wrong…I await an expert aviation person’s opinion. Back to the stated path…I’m skyjacking in SF. My plan is to jump into the Central Valley of California. I tell them to fly to Denver. They negotiate Salt Lake. I agree if they will fly in my jump configuration the whole way. What have I lost? Zero. My plan is the same. Take off and go west, any other direction and I’m reminding them who has the bomb and we are trying it again. When I see the lights of the next metro west, Sacramento, I know the terrain all around it and I know I can jump into farm land. Notice…I didn’t need to give a victor airway to achieve my exact goal.

For fun let’s take a look at the cousin of Battle Ground, directly west on the coast under V27. A place called Cape Falcon Lookout. https://maps.app.goo.gl/ksi1xfjNhcGBQp3h8 (Google maps) Little different than the slightly undulating farm lands around the DZ. Cooper never picked anything on the coast. He is wearing a parachute. Jumping the coast at night is legit suicidal, I don’t need to be a skydiver to know that. There’s millions of ways to die, basically endless possibilities. It’s not guaranteed death, but it’s absolutely rolling dice on your life. Allowing a plane to fly V27 for a parajacker makes no sense.