Kamkisky

If a fantastic suspect arises who is 5’9” or 6’1” I think the vortex can handle it. That’s actually a big range in real life and likely not generally mistakable, but 50 years on we have to use a wide view, and the witnesses had a variance so we are justified in doing so if most other things align. Ultimately though it’s a variable each person gets to set within reason…the FBI can have a standard. Ryan can have a standard. You can have a standard. It’s all good…it really comes down to the rest of a suspect’s case. Braden is tiny and considered a quality suspect…it happens. Does his height help his case, no. Did it prohibit his case being made, no. It’s like eye color or accent, there’s some wiggle room (brown or hazel/Ohio or Kansas).

The funny part is you both think Cooper is within two inches…the margin of error. Cooper is taller than Tina (I fail to see a counter argument), but he isn’t unusually tall for the period 6’2’’ +. The middle range for Cooper is 5’10” - 6’ (where you both have him), not short but not abnormally tall for the era. It’s another Cooper is basically an average dude stat. If we have to lean one way it’s likely taller IMO given witness statements but it’s all in the wash…a 5’9” suspect (barefoot military measurement at 18 or younger) and a 6’1” suspect (in shoes) are within the margin of error. One inch outside the median doesn’t determine Cooper. The argument is upper range or lower range. This reality hurts tall suspects as much as shorter ones. Yeah, there are more short people than tall but the facts we have don’t change. Cooper is likely 5’10”-5’11”. YMMV. Everyone can have their own standard…as long as it is not insane.

Melvin Wilson and a Melvin Fisher Im not familiar with Melvin Cooper? Also, I believe Ryan posted a stat about height guesses generally being within two inches. Posting a screenshot of him guessing Darren’s height within two inches only supports that concept. My two cents…Cooper was taller than Tina. She would have noticed if she was looking him in the eye.

“Cooper knew the plane had fuel. He knew the plane could make it to Mexico. He has the money. He has the chutes. Cooper can utter one sentence and the final piece of his initial plan happens and they go to Mexico. My question to you is simple…why doesn’t he utter that sentence? “ I’m almost with you but I’m still not seeing the answer to this. Why doesn’t Cooper complete his plan? One sentence away…

A coastal route for the Mex/Reno route was a legit option. FACT —— Yes, it’s a legit route for the plane to fly. Cooper thinking it was legit for his purposes is an assumption. Cooper agreeing to it is the counter factual you are just sliding into the factual. He never agreed to that AND he didn’t complain when they went south. Cooper never gave any input for a route other than Mex/Reno. FACT —- Yes, both south (Yuma too). That’s the input. It’s all the input he needed to give. A coastal route for the SF/LA route was a legit option. FACT —- Again, yes for the plane, it is an assumption that Cooper would have accepted a coastal route. Cooper said SF/LA was too small. FACT —-You meant to big and yes, but so what? They went over numerous airports, he was by definition going to have to deny some for some reason. I’m still struggling to live in your theory. Cooper doesn’t initially care about the route because he isn’t going to jump early but go straight to Mexico first. Ok. Got it to this point. Then, for some reason -you have stated miscommunication- Cooper agrees to abandon Mexico and go to Reno. Once Reno is agreed to he decides it’s better to just jump before Reno (good thing he wasn’t on the coast route ehh). Cooper then jumps at random. Here’s what I don’t get…why did Cooper give up on Mexico so easy and allow himself to be forced into a new plan that forces him to do a random jump in Washington (long ways from his initial goal of Mexico)? Cooper knew the plane had fuel. He knew the plane could make it to Mexico. He has the money. He has the chutes. Cooper can utter one sentence and the final piece of his initial plan happens and they go to Mexico. My question to you is simple…why doesn’t he utter that sentence?

“No, that is not the point, you are straw manning, they discussed a coastal path so it was a legitimate route for the plane. You kept denying this.. claiming some specific path from Cooper,, you are wrong.“ It’s a legit route for *the plane* under normal circumstances. Does that mean *Cooper* would have agreed to going west and down the coast? Again, it clearly does not. Thinking Cooper accepts a coastal route is the assumption.

Because NWO discussed a coast route means Cooper would have been ok with it. Does that make logical sense? Of course not. The pilots considered going out the front window too. Maybe Cooper considered sticking his pistol in the cowboy’s face. Lots of people considered doing lots of things..so what? The fact is everything Cooper stated or agreed to is south. That’s irrefutable. Sure, you could fly east first and then south, or west first and then south. They could have flown north out of Seattle too, anything could have happened. What did happen is Cooper stating the plane is to leave Seattle and go to southern destinations, it did. He then jumps at the first sign of civilization, into perfect farmland. Also, I’m lost on your geography. All these mountains are under 150 miles from the coast.

I’ll start here: “To claim by not giving instructions he didn't want to go the coast is an inversion of logic.“ This is your claim just framed in the negative. My claim is Cooper wanted to go south. That means the plane leaves Seattle and flys south. This is the only direction he ever requested or agreed too. The assumption comes in stating Cooper would have been fine with a coastal route (jumping or not)…that’s your assumption. You keep saying Cooper didn’t give a path. Yet he repeatedly states and negotiated a path…all south. I think what you mean is Cooper didn’t specify v23, ok. But he didn’t have to. I’ll give an example of why in a second. Regarding this 150 wide range flying south, to achieve this the crew of 305 would have needed to agree to go mountain top dodging, all of the mountains listed are within the 150 range to the coast. Several significantly closer (like half). To fly south up to 150 miles wide from the coast 305 would be bobbing a weaving through mountains taller than 10k ft. Now…I’m not an aviation expert so maybe this isn’t a problem and they would comfortably do so. But from newbies look it seems problematic to be flying in a dirty configuration, at night in cloud cover, in a jet hovering barely above stall speed while playing pinball with multiple mountains which have unique effects on wind and weather. Maybe I’m wrong…I await an expert aviation person’s opinion. Back to the stated path…I’m skyjacking in SF. My plan is to jump into the Central Valley of California. I tell them to fly to Denver. They negotiate Salt Lake. I agree if they will fly in my jump configuration the whole way. What have I lost? Zero. My plan is the same. Take off and go west, any other direction and I’m reminding them who has the bomb and we are trying it again. When I see the lights of the next metro west, Sacramento, I know the terrain all around it and I know I can jump into farm land. Notice…I didn’t need to give a victor airway to achieve my exact goal.

For fun let’s take a look at the cousin of Battle Ground, directly west on the coast under V27. A place called Cape Falcon Lookout. https://maps.app.goo.gl/ksi1xfjNhcGBQp3h8 (Google maps) Little different than the slightly undulating farm lands around the DZ. Cooper never picked anything on the coast. He is wearing a parachute. Jumping the coast at night is legit suicidal, I don’t need to be a skydiver to know that. There’s millions of ways to die, basically endless possibilities. It’s not guaranteed death, but it’s absolutely rolling dice on your life. Allowing a plane to fly V27 for a parajacker makes no sense.

Cooper never said don’t fly to Canada. He never said don’t fly to Idaho. He never said a lot. What he did say was clear. Mexico. Which is south. Then he agreed to Reno, which is south. And he agreed to Yuma, south. There is a discernible pattern. Cooper wanted to go south. There’s not a shred of evidence he wanted any other direction. Now imagine they pick V27 and the plane takes off and heads west. Cooper does or says nothing? Imagine the plane heads north? Silent Cooper? Imagine it veers due east at takeoff…Cooper twiddles his thumbs? Come on…he couldn’t have been more clear. Go south. He repeated it. If the plane goes a different direction that’s the funny business he warned about. There is only one stated and agreed upon direction throughout the skyjack after reaching Seattle…south. Additionally, west is the worst option for Cooper or any parajacker. He’d be better off going north or east. I’m not getting where Fly is coming up with this 150 miles range for flying south. Flying south from Seattle you quickly encounter Mt Rainer…14k ft. Then Mt St Helens which at the time was 9,600 ft. If one wanted to go east and do some mountain dodging in triple cloud cover there’s also Mt Adam at 12k ft. Then just south of Portland is Mt Hood 11k ft. Flight 305 flying at 10k ft is wedged in on the east. Mt St. Helens is less than 100 miles from the coast. Mt Rainer is about 100 miles to the coast. Portland is about 50 miles from the coast.The plane only has to go the agreed upon direction and Cooper is heading over/near Portland. He absolutely set parameters and those parameters worked. Cooper knew the direction and flight time. He knew the area from the air (Tacoma). He knew it on the ground (McChord). He could see I-5 as a guide. He could see the darkness until he sees the lights of BG. He could see the metro lights of Portland. He gets the stairs open in advance of BG. The oscillations start when the lights of BG appear. There’s no mystery here. It’s a simple plan that put him jumping into farmland and not the coast or mountains. And…Reno is West of LA.

Just my take. New eyes are sometimes helpful. A guy parajacking a jet, who has got rid of the passengers, put on the chute and strapped the money bag to himself, and is focused on getting the aft stairs lowered, likely cares if the plane is flying over water. Seems straightforward to me. Parachuting over water seems like a bad idea, just my newbie perspective. As for he did nothing to stop them from flying out over the ocean…he did. He told them where to go, every option he gave/agreed to was south, the ocean is west. My theory is he planned to jump (thus the chute being on) and he planned to do so south of Seattle (not west or north or east). I’m not dismissive of the idea of Mexico. Hell…he said fly to Mexico. But, there is a difference between Cooper wanting to go to Mexico and Cooper wanting the plane to go to Mexico and the authorities to search all the way down to Mexico. I don’t think skyjackers are always sharing the full story or telling the full truth. It’s part of the occupation.

I struggle with the concept of a guy literally wearing a parachute and money bag not caring about flying over ocean. I think he would have cared.

I know basically nothing more about skydiving than the average person (maybe a tiny bit more since joining the vortex) but I know the coastline of California and the PNW. There is no case to be made a coastal route is beneficial for jumping. Cooper wants to jump -thus the whole parajacking. The two things are opposites, there’s no way to marry them. Imagine parachuting into Big Sur (at freakin night)? It’s laughable. Cooper has zero reason to accept a coast route.

Cooper never talked about V23, only locations which all had a clear direction of south. The reason I ask is because Cooper wouldn’t want anything on the coast, any coastal route is terrible for him. This seems like a reason to reject several large airports. Fun side note: LA is east of Reno.

What are all airports he rejected? SF and LA. Are their others we know he ruled out?

Seems to me Cooper traded the refuel stops resulting from flying dirty for a straight shot to Mexico. And in your theory that was a bad trade, it resulted in him having to jump at random. In my theory that makes sense, get the escape hatch and configuration secured asap. If that means the plane ghosts to Reno instead of Mexico so what. He was never going to be on the plane the next time it lands anyways. Cooper and everyone else knows the more he touches down the higher the likelihood the FBI separates his head from his body with a sniper. One touchdown is all he wanted…and it worked. If Cooper was really planning to go to Mexico he doesn’t need to be wearing a chute and strapped money bag in Seattle. However, if he plans to jump at Portland it makes sense. It’s the opposite of Eric U’s theory on an early jump right after takeoff. In that theory Cooper isn’t prepared enough for takeoff. His level of jump prep and the 30 minute wait all IMO point to a planned jump about where he did. Maybe he had a few areas and visual cues further south if he missed BG/Portland. I could see himself giving himself optionality.

He has the money. He has the chutes. He has a refueled plane that can make it to Mexico. He has won. He is one sentence away from Mexico. Im trying to live in this theory and this is the part I’m not getting. Cooper didn’t forget the plane could make it to Mexico based on whatever miscommunications are happening.

I’m going based off what Fly says was his goal, Mexico… and comparing that to what actually happened. What I’m missing is why he gave up on his goal *when he didn’t have to*? He knew the plane had the fuel and range to get to Mexico. Couple scenarios: 1 - Cooper insists on his original goal. He tells them to fly straight to Mexico. In this scenario Cooper gets what he wants. 2 - Cooper agrees to stop in Reno, which in turn causes him to jump into randomness before landing in Reno. In this scenario he doesn’t get what he wants. Why pick option two? He gains nothing. He loses his main goal according to Fly. He ends up jumping and hoping at random. All of this when he could have just said a single sentence…fly straight to Mexico and I’ll give future instructions. If Fly is right and Mexico is his goal he is one sentence away from achieving it. Yet…. This situation makes more sense IMO if you take the request to go to Mexico not as his goal but as a way to drag out the search area and increase his get away time. With this understanding his openness to negotiate Reno makes sense, it still accomplishes what he wanted. I like a simple Cooper. Point A to B and back to A. Know the terrain, read the signs viable from the air. Jump into farmland. The plane can continue on to Mexico or Reno…he doesn’t care.

I’m just trying to live in your theory. Cooper is flying around looking for a flight to skyjack and take to Mexico. He selects 305. He demands the money, chutes, etc and to go to Mexico. He then changes his plan while he is getting everything he wants. I’m not seeing why he would do that when he knows a fully fueled 727 can make it to Mexico. Cooper initial said no US stops. He clearly didn’t want Reno or any of the others. Cooper selected to abandon straight to Mexico *when he didn’t have to.* He knew the plane could make it there, he knew it had a fresh full tank. What does he gain by abandoning his main goal so easily? It appears in your theory he gains the opportunity to jump into randomness and hope. It’s on you to explain why he decided to pick jumping randomly over a simple sentence…”fly directly to Mexico and I’ll give further instruction then.”

Did Cooper know the plane could fly to Mexico? If the answer is yes, then Cooper chose to negotiate refueling stops over flying straight to Mexico. You can argue it’s over a miscommunication but it’s what happened. Cooper was open to switching Mexico for Reno…when he knew the plane could make it to Mexico flying normally. Whatever understanding he had or the pilots had doesn’t change that Cooper walked in the plane knowing it go make it to Mexico and decided to change to Reno. This is where your theory hits a wall. If Mexico is the goal he gave up on it real easy when he didn’t have to. Cooper could just demand they fly directly to Mexico and no funny stuff. Simple. Done deal…305 goes to Mexico. In my theory he just wants south so he don’t give up on anything. He gains the jump configuration he wants to be operational the whole time…he secures his only line of escape AND keeps the direction he wanted.

So he wants to go to Mexico, that’s his real plan? He knows the plane can fly that far, but there’s a miscommunication through Tina and he is told they have to make several stops because of the configuration. Cooper just accepts this, thereby eliminating his initial plan. He just gives up and his plan is defunct for a reason he could have stopped by simply saying “No. Fly at a normal configuration and as fast as possible straight to Mexico, no funny stuff.” I don’t get it. If he wants Mexico, he could get Mexico. Also, if he wanted Mexico why skyjack in PNW? Rejecting large airports *means* he thought he’d still be on the plane is a logical jump. Once they say they’d have to stop to refuel Cooper has to either say no, go straight to Mexico OR negotiate refuel stops. It’s like giving the name to the ticket agent, it’s merely a prerequisite. He has to do it, but he doesn’t care and his name isn’t Dan Cooper. Cooper said no to big and yes to small airports, ok. He also didn’t pick the coastal option, we could surmise he didn’t want to be on the coast too. Once Cooper has the loot on the runway in Seattle he only needs three things from other people…the plane to go south, the configuration to be jumpable and for the stairs to be lowered. I don’t see any counter argument to Cooper wanting to go south. Can anyone argue he wanted to go north? East? West? He clearly wanted to go south. What is directly south of Seattle? Portland, where he jumps. I’m not sure where you are getting the 130 miles wide part from. Mt St Helens is well less than 100 miles from the coast and Portland is about 50 miles. He wedges them in by saying 10k ft. They have to go back over the Portland area, which is his goal. Maybe there were miscommunications on the configuration but what we know for sure is Cooper choose to fly dirty with stops over flying normal and straight to Mexico. Why is he willing to make such a massive adjustment to his Mexico plan? I’d proffer it’s because he doesn’t care…he is exiting at Portland. He only needs south, the rest is just to stretch out the search area and Reno works just like Mexico He keeps Tina to show him the lever. He then tests it out early to make sure he can work it. He waits, he knows where he is. This is part of the advantage a short flight from A to B and back A…with no other metros. As the time starts getting closer to BG he fully descends the stairs by 8:05. He answers the phone, it’s all good. He sees BG lights, game time. He’d had the lights of I-5 as a guide for awhile too. You write: “Cooper wanted out before Reno and as soon as he could he just jumped. No targeted LZ.“ So he just got lucky he didn’t jump into wilderness or downtown Portland or Redding? Basically, how does he decide where to jump before Reno if he wasn’t planning on it? He managed to jump into a great spot…

My understanding is you are an 8:11 jump person vs an 8:13 type. Is that correct? Either way works for my theory. As soon as he sees BG lights it’s go time. If he saw BG 90 seconds sooner or later has no impact on the overall plan and using the lights of BG. It’s just minutiae. The pilot Ryan talked to was on the FBIs radar right after the jump. They searched his place and gave his wife a hard time. He has been flying this area for over 50 years. I take his input very seriously. He says it’s darkness regarding city lights till BG. BG just happens to be right at the 8:11-8:13 window. The flight simulator we can argue with but it is another data point worth considering. At what point did Cooper get the stairs down? Isn’t it around 8:05 when he answers the interphone and says hi to Tina and that everything is now good? That’s the set up. He was preparing after 20 minutes of waiting. It was just before go time. This is part of why having a short flight is beneficial. Cooper can track his location better. I disagree about Reno. I don’t think Cooper had any intention of being on the plane then. But while he is negotiating he is sitting on the runway in Seattle with the aft stairs closed. He wanted Mexico, but he’ll take anything south. Why not pick podunk over major metro if you’re Cooper? Give yourself another option if everything fails. The fact he didn’t argue much about the stairs being up or down or which airport to refuel at indicates to me he only tangential cared. LA? No thanks. Huge…tons of cops. Reno, sure. Less cops. Whatever. It’s south and that’s the point. His plan was to be gone by Portland. He’s just giving himself an option if his plan fails, he is nonchalant relatively speaking because it’s the backup option. If you are right and Cooper just wanted to get out of the US -he knew roughly the flight distance of a 727, he didn’t ask to go to Brazil- then why ask for the dirty configuration at all in Seattle? Wouldn’t the best option be to tell them to fly as fast as possible to Mexico and not ask for drag flaps/10k ft/landing gear down? And if that was a mistake, he wanted it later, why wouldn’t he bitch about the stops? He knew the plane under normal conditions could make it to Mexico. If that’s his destination why not just get there ASAP? IMO Cooper wanted south over Portland. He gave instructions that would take him south and have the plane in a configuration to jump. He has only two needs, he achieved both. It worked. As for the 120 mile wide path…Cooper set conditions that wedge them in on the east with the mountains. If the plane had gone west to the coast he would have told them to go back and try again. There is nothing on the coast that works for Cooper, it’s all terrible for him. He would not want the coast and wouldn’t put up with it. Why would he? It makes no sense for a guy looking to jump. Of all three other directions West is the worst for jumping. My theory is he kept it simple. Select a short flight. Go from one metro to the next, without other metros to confuse you. Learn the key indicators (BG/I-5 lights). Know the terrain from the air and ground. Jump before the metro lights. Simple. Can’t mess it up. Hell, any one of us could pick the spot between BG and Portland from the air at night knowing what we do now. We can tell the distance/time/lights, so could he. That’s all he needed. As for a vehicle or accomplice…not needed. Any good car thief can get away regardless of where he lands. Cooper only needed good terrain to land in. Once he is on the ground he is almost certainly armed and dangerous and will take the first viable vehicle and flee. Cooper thinks they are looking from Seattle to Reno, the night before Thanksgiving. He has time to steal a vehicle and make 100 miles before anyone notices.

If Cooper wanted to jump later, where? Unless that intended spot is in California -ie south of Oregon- the Reno switch from Mexico should have made no difference. Here’s my take: Cooper picked 305 because he knew the area from the air and ground. The PNW is likely not where he lived and the typical grey weather helps this type of crime, jumping into a clear night makes him more visible. He also selected 305 because it was a short flight, this makes times and distances more manageable. I strongly suspect he flew 305 in a dry run. I also suspect he flew the area at night prior to the skyjacking, maybe in a commercial plane or maybe as a pilot of a small plane. There are three other main factors that lead me to believe he wanted to jump north of Portland: 1) The pilot Ryan talked to that has been flying in the area since before 71. That pilot said the first city lights that were visible when going south were Battle Ground. North of BG is dark forest. And as one got to BG the lights of the VC/Port metro appear. 2) A poster on Reddit just did simulations on the flight and I-5 can be a guide post from Centralia south. The poster also said Portland and BG are EASIER to spot at night because of the lights and during the day the relatively flat terrain allows them to kinda sneak up on you. 3) Cooper waited through the darkness for 30 minutes. He begins to act -oscillations- right as the plane reaches BG. He jumps between BG and the metro, into a great place for a night jump to happen. Maybe he just got super lucky. But his actions seem to tell a different story. He used the I-5, BG and metro lights to guide him. It wouldn’t have taken more than a dry run or two to figure this plan out and it worked perfectly. Why? Because it is simple and with controlled variables. I think Cooper had experience flying and landing at night and that’s part of why he could spot Tacoma. this wasn’t his first time navigating from the sky. He was comfortable with that skill. McNally said when he jumped he could look forward from the stairs. If you look at the flight path, just south of BG the plane is perfectly aligned to see the metro lights off his left shoulder and BG lights off the tail of the plane. As for Mexico and V23, maybe there was a mixup in the flying dirty the whole way or not. I lean towards not. It was the pilots who first suggest taking off with the stairs down. Cooper didn’t fight them either way. Why? Because he didn’t really care. He just wants two things…go south and in the configuration he requested when he is ready to jump. I think Cooper preferred Reno because it’s smaller, if something happened and he couldn’t jump (remember he’s on the ground with the stairs closed while negotiating) he wanted to give himself the best odds. So he wanted the most podunk places. He said Mexico to create the longest search area, obviously not knowing about the pressure bump. He had likely looked up the range of the 727. As for V23, maybe he knew or not I don’t think it matters. There are only 4 main directions and Cooper was clear, south. That’s it. That's the flight path he wants, it takes him directly where he plans to go I also believe he picked the day before Thanksgiving because it would slow down law enforcement…and it did. In short: -skyjack over terrain you know, and keep it simple (one direction and one metro away) -do it at night and right before a holiday -use the major visual clues for orientation

This isn’t my experience. A daily hardcore -pack or more- smoker will always have a rolling supply of smokes and lights. It’s not always a neatly paired one for one, it’s more like a par system used at a restaurants. They never run out. The idea of running out is anathema. Running out is for casual smokers or if they are flat broke…at which point they’ll be bumming cigs from others. Cooper prepared for his crime. Having cigs and lights would rank up there with having a pistol or goggles. Cooper wouldn’t have known how long it would take till he next could grab smokes, he would have arrived at PDX stocked up. His using up one match book off beat with his cigarette pack being used up shows he is a more regular smoker and his ability to pull out another match book and keep on puffing shows he was likely a regular smoker. If his pack of smokes ran out, he likely would have opened another one.

Hi all…. New to this forum. I post at Reddit on Cooper. I’ll jump right in, a legit smoker would be sure to arrive at PDX with smokes. Heavy smokers don’t leave it to chance, they never run out. That’s the difference between a casual and hardcore smoker. While the photo of the vending machine is interesting, Cooper came prepared. He would have had a day or two worth of smokes on him. Shifting gears, there was a very interesting parachute discussion recently on here. It seems there are two schools of thought, one being Cossey was always straight with the FBI about it being an NB6 even if he told reporters more and more nonsense over the years. The other school seems to believe Cossey made a mistake originally with the FBI thinking the chutes all came from the skydiving center and he never corrected it, thus it’s likely not an NB6. Is this basically the situation? What is the chute at the museum in Seattle? And what did Cossey tell the FBI the chute was? We have one of the two chutes so if Cossey was right about that chute immediately he is likely right about the other. But if Cossey’s story on that chute doesn’t line up with the chute in the museum there a problem.