RogerRamjet

I haven't been to Deland in a very long time so forgive me if it should be obvious, but... Gary who and Carl who (maybe I know them)? ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

I think the other problem with hand-deploy reserve is AAD and how to make it work, not like there is a loop to cut... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Well, maybe Sparky can help with that. I built the first 120 Wonderhogs and the ones with Hand-Deploy were all bight of bridle type. I then worked for Bill Buchman for about a year and all his with Hand-Deploy were the same (as were mine when I built my own after that). I have seen both the straight pin and the curved pin, but I was gradually getting out of the sport about then, so wasn't paying too much attention. I never heard of any problems with the elastic closure and bight of bridle method we were using, but Sparky mentioned in his post that there were problems with those too? I kinda miss the "cutting edge" days at Booths shop (Well, actually it was Pam Tayon's converted garage)... I learned a lot about how to think about things working for him. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

10 Years old? You must not have been jumping in the US... As for the straight pins on the bridle, I always thought it unfortunate that the system had to evolve to pins in the first place. The original system had a container that the main/bag actually fit. The closure system was a loop of elastic on the first flap passed through the grommets on the remaining three flaps and secured with a bight of the bridle. It wasn't long before people were stuffing larger and larger canopies into the rigs (or making the container smaller) and the solid loop/pin closure came about. Compared to the original system, it opens up a number of possible issues some of which I've seen reported on this board (pin seperated from the bridle). Straight pins should never have been used (at least with a non-elastic closing loop) and this should certainly have been obvious to the rig maker. As for a throw-out on the reserve, I don't know if that will ever happen. There are issues with RSL, single sided access (can't really throw it with the other hand if you're disabled), etc. The main is considered by the government to be a toy mostly and there is much more freedom of alteration, but the reserve system is another story. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

This is what it looks like coming out. Yahoo! Are we having fun yet. Sparky Yes it is, and if that isn't just after exit, it's going to hurt too.... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Really, I chuckled about how things have changed at Z-Hills since I left. When I was jumping there (in the old days), there was a C-47 (DC-3) capable of 40 jumpers and a L-18 Loadstar capable of 29 jumpers (and we had Bill Buchman to fly it so we didn't have stall problems). Of course getting to altitude took a little longer... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Hmmm, when I lived at Z-Hills in the loft (when it was a commercial center in '73/74) I didn't seem to have any problems. I just dated female skydivers, that way I was with somebody just as broke and obsessed with skydiving as me... The best match is another skydiver (except for little things like saving for retirement). ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

That's the very reason I became a rigger initially, I didn't want to put my life in the hands of someone I didn't know (or anyone else for that matter). I got my ticket 3 months before my first jump (long story), but couldn't pack my own reserve until I was jumping my own gear. Packed my own T-10 static line main though ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Nope 5000 sumpin Ahh, sorry. You had been jumping long enough and there are only two people with the first name Jeanne from that far back in the database. I am working on consolidating all the SCR, SCS, NSCR, etc. data into one database for Web publication for Bill. I don't have the data from the 5000's yet, but I will soon. Several people are working on getting everthing that is on paper into spreadsheets for me which I will import into the database. Soon, there will be one place to find all the awards from the beginning to current

Nope 5000 sumpin Ahh, sorry. You had been jumping long enough and there are only two people with the first name Jeanne from that far back in the database. I am working on consolidating all the SCR, SCS, NSCR, etc. data into one database for Web publication for Bill. I don't have the data from the 5000's yet, but I will soon. Several people are working on getting everthing that is on paper into spreadsheets for me which I will import into the database. Soon, there will be one place to find all the awards from the beginning to current

I started before all of ya.. so there neener neener But I did not jump for a while.. but I was still in the air.. And I am older than a BUNCH of rock I have walked on. SCR 3120 by any chance? ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

I think you summed it up perfectly! ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Well it may just be that the general climate has changed. I worked for two different rig makers in the mid '70s, Bill Booth and Bill Buchman, and also built and sold my own rigs briefly (I'm a Senior Rigger, not a Master Rigger). None of them were TSO approved at that time. Niether were the Jump Shack SST rigs of the time and probably none of the other custom fit rigs made around the country. It was simply not a requirement at any dropzones I went to in those days (or even asked about). I jumped at Z-Hills, Deland, Hinkley, and a few others as well as making many jumps here and there around the East Coast. I made several FAA special approval jumps into airshows, malls, and little league diamonds. Never was I asked about my rig at all. I don't believe Bill Booth started the TSO process on the WonderHog until toward the end of the decade. I remember seeing Wonderhog drops from the 196 at Z-Hills sometime around 1978 or 79 (I think, long time ago). Maybe Bill will drop in to this thread and offer his recollections. I assume from reading this that TSO is now required anywhere you go? ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

I wore an altimeter only for other people's reference, I eyeballed my altitude. I learned this after opening at 700 feet with three other jumpers after the altimeter we were all referencing turned out to be "stuck" at 3500. Jim Hooper (ASO at the time) had quite a talk for us when we landed several seconds later... I was tested several times by non-believers and could call 3500 (break off altitude in the '70s) and 2000 feet +- 200 feet every time. Now, if you took me to another drop zone, I would certainly reference altimeters on others until I learned the topology there. As for Casa Grande, I never jumped there, but being in the desert probably would make it very difficult to judge one's altitude, same with over water jumps. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Perhaps if your choices were the Para-Plane and the original Para-Foil with their dubious reefing systems, you might feel different. With the Para-Plane at least, you had to pack it for either Sub-Terminal or Terminal. Take it sub-terminal when packed for terminal and it bag locked. Take it terminal when packed for sub-terminal and it broke bones. Rounds were not as bad as current jumpers seem to think and no one hooked them in to their death... Wendy, I made my first jump on July 1, 1973. The state of Florida lowered the legal age from 21 to 18 on that day (screwing my parents out of controlling my wish to jump). I was 20 and my parents weren't too excited about skydiving.... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

I started on round parachutes. 35' T-10 military gear at Z-Hills for me. Before the Fax machine. ditto Before CD's ditto, but I had 350 record albums (still do) Before Tandems - when the only way to learn was Static line. ditto When we stayed away from people with AAD's Never saw one... Flew in Cessna's without doors - even in Winter. At least our Cessna's had jump doors. The only turbines we jumped were C-130's Never jumped a turbine. Spotted ourselves - as there was no GPS. ditto, no such thing as GPS yet (at least portable for civil use). When 7 cells were "radical" and reserves had 5 cells - or were round. No such thing as square reserve when I started. When we needed to do water jumps for the licence - not just a briefing. ditto Also, no hand-deply, no 3-Ring, no RSL (some were experimenting), no free-bags, and last but not least, no low turn fatalities. No square main jumps allowed until 200 jumps. Things have certainly changed a bit :) BTW, where do you vote in the poll, I don't see anything but the thread when I enter? ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

That is because the "throw out PC" or "Hand Deploy Pilot Chute" as it was called when it was invented did not exist at the printing of that book. Furthermore, the hand deploy idea was brought on by a picture in that very manual. I don't have mine anymore, left it at Booths shop when I left, but if you look through your manual, you will find a picture of a guy who has just left the plane with a pilot chute attached to his helmet. That is where the idea originated for the first hand deploy (on my Wonderhog). ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Haven't seen one of those in a long while. I bet most do not even know what you are referring to. Sparky Yeah, probably right about that. Let's see, if you take the standard pilot chute used in those days (spring loaded, I believe they where MA-12s) and sew a rounded diamond shaped piece of pack material on the cap with a couple of gromments in the ends, you might visualize what it looked like. You'd compress the spring directly on the main container and wrap the ends of the diamonds around the container and under the back pad. There is where the two grommets meet a loop on the underside of the pack. Pull the loop through the gromments and secure with the end of the plastic ripcord. It worked very well and avoided the inherent problems of the internal pilot chutes of the time (I.E. usually involving bungie cords to assist in pack opening, pilot chute having to clear top/bottom/side flaps, etc.). Then one day I'm reading the "Parachute Manual" by Dan Pointer and see a picture of a guy from way back leaving a bi-plane with a pilot chute attached to his helmet?!? I point this out to Bobby Gray and we decide a pilot chute not attached to the container is a cool idea. Eventually Bill comes home and we figure out a way to make a springless pilot chute and come up with a tube on the belly band to hold it. The container is already closed with an elastic loop and a bight of the bridle, so just add some velcro to hold the bridle to the belly band and sew on a flap to cover the pack closure and viola, we have hand-deploy. The rest as they say, is history. Not long after that, we got a report from Casa Grande that a plastic ripcord had broken. Now you would not believe the tests Bill put that stuff through and it is still hard to believe it just broke, but... Bill ordered the alteration of the rig to use a metel housing and standard cable type reserve ripcord right then. He never messed with safety issues, they got his full attention until resolved. When I left Bill Booth's operation to go to work for Bill Buchman, he was just messing around with the 3-Ring stuff, and once again, the rest is history. I consider it an honor to have built the first 100+ Wonderhogs for Bill and to have been able to be involved with his shop which has done so much for the safety of this sport. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

My only cutaway was on a Wonderhog. It was just before we came up with the hand deploy system (I was working for Booth), so I had TWO PLASTIC RIPCORDS, one for the wrap-around pilot chute on the main and one for the reserve (no handle for 3-Ring, they were just a glimmer in Bills mind at this point, I had 1-Shot Capewells). Pull main, hardest cheapo opening of my life! Look up and several lines over. Throw main ripcord away, pull down one-shots, pull reserve and look over my shoulder. Boy, one ugly mess of 26' white Navy Conical reserve fabric coming off my back followed by lines paying out of the stows (in the container tray, no free bag back then). I couldn't believe how un-orderly it looked, but it opened perfectly. I did a stand-up landing right next to the Z-Hills loft. Didn't start shaking for a couple of hours when I realized I was down to my last chute. I had done two intentional cutaways before that and they really payed off, very smooth. I came back two weeks later with my brand new hand-deploy and brand new Strato-Star which Bill and I had to learn how to pack from the directions and a couple of phone calls since no one had one in Florida yet. You guys with free-bags and square reserves don't know what a mess really looks like :) ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Among others and in no particular order: Bill Booth: For asking me to build the first wonderhogs and for helping me to learn how to "think outside the box." And of course for all that he has done for the sport. Roger Nelson: Because he was my friend. For introducing me to "pre-stars" (when they were being invented) and later writing about it in Pat Works "United We Fall" book (and not telling me). For being able to do anything in free fall that he chose to try. I knew Roger for more than 30 years... Carl Nelson: Because he was my friend. For taking great pictures and when showing them to everyone at whatever meet we were at, pointing out who was flying well (those that weren't just had to compare how they looked to those he was pointing out). Jim Hooper: For having me on his 10 way team (Ten High) and moving me to a flyer position (9th) where I had to learn to go fast or be passed by Steve Fugleburg (10th). Tony "Frit" Patterson: For having such a great time at everything he did and excelling at it. For treating me like an equal when he was so much more advanced and considered a "sky god." Jeff Searles: For forcing me to think about malfunctions seriously before I had one. Because of him, I did two intentional cutaways before I needed to do one for real. Also, for helping me get my riggers license and hiring me as Z-Hills rigger. Bill Buchman: For hiring me to build his rigs. For taking me on a journey to Illinois to jump for a summer. For being the best Loadstar jump pilot anywhere. This guy is still flying jumpers at Deland! Scotty Carbone: What can you say about Scotty. Excellent jumper, great with the women, generally fun to be around. Hadn't seen Scotty in 25 years until a couple of months ago when I dropped by the Keys Boogie in Marathon Key. We had a great reunion, the guy is still terrific! Roger Ponse: Roger was organizing loads in Z-Hills and Deland in the mid '70s. He's still organizing loads today! Can anyone do it better? Dan Steiger: For showing me how to relax on my static line exits thereby allowing me to finish my static line course. His method of student exit was adopted by Z-Hills because of this experience and Jim Hooper listening and realizing it was a superior method. I'm sure there are others, but these stand out in my mind. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

I believe Deland's Mr. Douglas holds the record. I was on a load in 1976 (I think) and Jay Boynton was counting the jumpers.... 57, 58, 59, 60... at which point he yelled foward "balls to the wall!!!" Carl Daugherty (still jumping) was on that load. I was probably too young to realize how over wieght that was. In my opinion, that particular DC-3 (2 stage superchargers) would take off with pretty much anything you could stuff inside. Forty jumpers on that DC-3 and on the Z-Hills C-47 were common in those days. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Cool... the last time I tried the competition course, I wiped out on the 3rd turn, which flipped the ski up in the air until it whacked me on the head and arm. Ended up getting 3 stitches in my scalp and 4 stitches in my arm. On the other hand, I've never gotten hurt on the ski slopes, but I've busted three ski poles, one boot and had the binding ripped off one ski on some of my wipeouts, and never a bruise on my body. But of course I've had sore muscles for sure. My favorite ski resort is Kirkwood in CA. Of course, it's the only place in the west that I've skied at, but it was great. Blue Skies Billy Haven't hurt myself snow skiing yet either, even though I only go once or twice a year (I live in Florida). Skied at: Winter Park, CO Vail, CO Breckenridge, CO Keystone, CO Steamboat Springs, CO Park City, UT Whistler/Blackcomb, BC Insbrook, AU Heading to Lake Tahoe to ski in January :) ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

Interesting, this is what I do now. I compete in the Men-4 division (45 to 53) in slalom. While I was considered a world class skydiver, I'm just another competitor in water-skiing. My best competition run to date is 2 @ 38 feet off the rope. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

All that and you didn't even mention the real low point which comes a few hours after drinking that stuff... I had my first at 49, everything normal. Every 5 years was the recommendation based on no family history of problems. That's plenty soon enough for me ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

The most natural skydiver I was ever in the air with was Roger Nelson. Before getting into skydiving, he competed in Tang Soo Do (A Korean Martial Art). I felt his awareness of his own body position gave him an edge and the Karate was where he learned to know what his body was doing. I have no idea what kind of beginner he was though as I didn't meet him until 1974 by which time he had accumulated around 700 jumps (I think, because I had around 500 and he was a couple of hundred ahead of me). There are a wide variety of athletic sports, but I would guess those disciplines that stress knowing where your body parts are, in particular your extremities, would have the advantage in free fall. Of course I could name a few other jumpers that have no athletic background at all that could fly circles around most too... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519