CooperNWO305

I agree with ParrotHead. Good analogy with the Zodiac movie. That film was great and had top actors and actresses. What did it do for the case? They are still debating it like we are Cooper. On the height. Don’t forget that Cooper was seen standing up by Dennis Lysne the ticket agent, the gate agent, passengers, and then at least one flight attendant walking across the tarmac and onto the plane. Robert. I disagree with you on your comments about The Cooper Forum. I think it’s a great place. There are some personalities on there, but there are also the top DB Cooper researchers too. Dropzone is a good supplement.

One way to measure public interest in the case is to track views of the DB Cooper entry on Wikipedia. The biggest days were around 2016 when the FBI "closed" the case, and Case Closed came out. Since then there is a spike on the anniversary, or on days that a DB Cooper documentary is shown or re-shown (Case Closed, Expedition Unknown, etc.). But none of these comes close to the visits in 2016. So, even if there is a new show that comes out, or a movie, it will likely end up with just a small spike in visits. Interest will probably peak around the 50th anniversary, but it will take something real big to get sustained interest. One big reason is the age of those interested (usually over 35 or even older). Another issue is the 24 hour news cycle and access to so many other things. Frankly, we'd be better off if this was the 1980's and there was no internet or Netflix to take people's time. To get interest to really increase, it will take the FBI re-opening the case or someone finding a $20. It sounds like some of the Cooper folks are trying to get more publicity for the case, but I predict that any publicity will be brief, like with Reca.

The FBI had some info that made them not consider KC to be a prime suspect. https://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/FBI-rejects-latest-D-B-Cooper-suspect-1253715.php I got lost in all the back and forth here. How tall was Kenny? My thoughts on height are that yes, it can be subjective. If a friend of mine called me up and asked me how tall they are, I would probably only be able to get in a range or heights, or I would say, you're around my height, etc. I think if DB Cooper was real tall, say 6 feet or above, or real short, maybe 5'8 or so or less, then that would be a qualifier/disqualifier. However, if he was in that range of just "average" then there is not a lot to go on. From my understanding of reading a lot of the 302's, he was not short, he was not tall. He was just average. Average at that time was probably around 5' 10" If DB Cooper was walking around, would people look at him and say, "he's tall" or would they say "he's short" or would they not say anything at all? There are a few things about Cooper that really seemed to stand out to people: his hair, his age, his demeanor, and I believe his dark brown eyes.

Robert: Family members say a lot of things, just think of Marla, the Reca group, etc. My opinion is that DB Cooper's family may very well not want anyone to know who he is. For a minute I thought it would be cool if my grandfather was DB Cooper, but then I realized that there are many ways for the hijacking to come back and bite the family. As far as I'm concerned, a death bed confession is a strike against someone being DB Cooper. Just because Kenny's mother got a loan, does not make him DB Cooper. And when you say "testify" do you mean under oath or in front of a grand jury? Hundreds of people have claimed to have information on DB Cooper, but none of them are in jail. Someone is lying or exaggerating. The FBI does not talk to people much, and when they do it is to acknowledge receipt of material. If one agent tells someone something, this does not constitute "The FBI said this", all it means is that one agent made a comment. The Rackstraw and Reca groups both claim to have FBI agents supporting them, or former agents. Someone is wrong, as it could not be both Reca and Rackstraw. One of the reasons the FBI is so close mouthed about the case is because any comment they make will be taken out of context and used to build a case for just one suspect. One thing is for certain, the FBI has officially stated that a number of individuals are not likely to be DB Cooper. This does not mean though that if they have not said a name that this person is DB Cooper. We've seen a few Cooper researchers say "The FBI has not ruled out so and so" Whatever. They have not ruled out Ted Cruz's father either.

I and a number of others believe the FBI thought this would be a slam dunk case from the start, hence the lack of urgency even on the day after during the search. They may have figured Cooper would be caught right away, or someone would turn him in, or he would get caught on another crime, or do something to stand out, like spending all the money. As the years dragged on, they realized this was not the case. Their approach would have been drastically different back then had they known what we know now. I see the FBI as having spread their resources thin by chasing every suspect that was phoned in, versus targeting their efforts. Granted they did target their efforts on skydivers, military parachutists, etc., but they did not seem to spread their efforts far enough. Example: They focused on the Pacific Northwest, skydivers, military, those with certain grudges, etc. By flooding every region of the country, more grudges, more types of people, they may have been able to shake something loose. There were roughly 20 million males in the United States in 1971 within the age range of the hijacker. There are maybe 20 suspects who make the list these days, so the reality is that of the 20 million people that could have done this it is highly unlikely that any current suspect is DB Cooper (just by the numbers). I believe that if the FBI was told in 1971 that they would not solve this for 50 years, that they likely would have taken a different approach. If they had opened up to some of the current theories, then maybe one enterprising agent would have cracked the case. I wonder where this case would even be without Larry Carr and what he did. Maybe it would be nowhere. Hindsight is always 20-20 though.

What do you mean by adding/inventing? This whole case is theory. Every suspect is really just a theory, including yours. What real evidence do we have? A black tie, worn by hundreds of thousands of people in 1971? A drawing of a middle aged man who may have had brown eyes? 300 bills found at Tina Bar that only have added to speculation? Without speculation and theory none of these suspects would even have a spot on Wikipedia. Don't confuse evidence with information. I agree, there is no evidence that he doctored the 20's, but then again, there is no evidence that he didn't. None of the money showed up in circulation, some theories say no one was looking, but we have not interviewed everyone. How do we know that there was not some random casino employee obsessed with this case like we are who was looking for 20's. Average salary in 1971 was around $7,000. That means Cooper could have gotten away with over 25 years worth of salary. Even if he took 30 minutes under a microscope fixing a $20 (worth $120) that is an hourly rate of $240. Not bad. The money piece for me is a theory, it got me involved in the case, just like the Tina Bar find keeps people engaged, or the air stairs, or his aviation experience. Without theories and speculation this case goes cold. Unless you start talking aliens, then from my perspective most theories can be considered. I've seen the whole "that is not evidence" or "the evidence does not support this" as a way to discount many possible theories. I've used it myself, but try to use it sparingly and on glaring issues, or on people who have done zero research on the case. Georger likes to use the whole scientific evidence piece on people when they start coming up with theories.

How do you know the ink will run? I just told you I did it with basic supplies. Maybe a 1969 bill was different. But not that different. There are all sorts of inks and pencils he could have used. Besides, he didn’t need ink to doctor the 1963As. You don’t use a Sharpie or a magic marker. Counterfeiters made money all the time and the ink didn’t always run. They would get busted because of the paper or because of the intricate detail that they could not duplicate. Making a 3 into an 8 is not intricate. Regardless, doctoring the bills is a theory. We know now that he could have spent the money and not got caught. Maybe that’s what he did. Max Gunther’s Dan LeClair says he spent it, and also had some of it boxed up to send back. However, someone with printing experience would certainly have thought about trying to change the serial numbers. They may have decided it was not a good idea though.

He would only have to alter at most 9,700 bills. The 10,000 that left the plane minus the 300 on Tina Bar. Of those 9,700, only the 1963A's could be altered in method 1 (erase the A and make it a 1963 series) and only a certain portion could be altered in method 2, which is those that had a 3 in their serial number. However, if you combine the 1963A bills with those 1969 bills with 3's and 8's, you have a lot bills. Remember, a $20 in 1971 is worth about $120 now, so a little bit of time to change the bill is worth it. He could even have made a stamp to do it quickly, or use a machine. Cashiers are not looking for doctored serial numbers, they are looking for counterfeit bills. Cooper's $20's were not counterfeit. Trust me, unless they had a microscope, they could not have seen that he doctored the bills. I used real basic items to test out my theory, and then showed the bills to people and no one could see what I had done. As a side note, I worked around a lot cash at one point in my life, we looked for major issues like paper feel, paper weight, color, size of paper, thickness. Some people would try to take a one dollar bill and paste on 5's, 10's, 20's, etc. Those things stood out. Changing one serial number that is around Font 10 would never have caught someone's eye. Erasing a tiny A would definitely not have caught someone's eye. Side note: William J. Smith had a number of hobbies. One was model airplanes, another one was printing. Another one was stamp collecting. He was a meticulous man when he wanted to be.

This is a rough concept of what I would have done with the bills. 1. The easiest thing to do would be to erase the A in 1963A. Easily done with nail polish remover. 2. Second option would be to change any serial number with a 3 to an 8 with a little bit of green ink. Or erase 8s and make them 3s. I’ve tried all 3 methods and they work. Early on I thought that DB Cooper could have been a counterfeiter, and there was actually a suspect who had been busted for counterfeiting. Melvin Wilson I think. Someone with basic skills could have fixed the bills. Someone with printing or art experience could easily have done it. An option for the FBI would be to have gathered as many $20's as possible, and focused on the ones from the San Francisco Federal Reserve (Code L). Over 75% of the bills were from there. Once they had a good enough sample size (25,000 bills or so), they could have looked for a Cooper $20 undoctored, or look for a $20 that had a serial number close to one of the Cooper bills. It would be a lot easier today though just using Microsoft Excel.

That was a good article, thanks for the link.

Close serial numbers could be doctored bills. It’s a long shot, but possible. Here’s one for you all. Imagine it’s 1972-3 or even later, and the FBI finds a $20 in circulation. What do they do? What does it mean?

There were definitely a lot of 1969 and 1963A $20 bills printed. The numbers I was given are about 607 million 1969 $20's and 821 million 1963A $20's. There were ways that the government could have isolated a Cooper $20, but that would have required someone who understood probability well enough to do what was needed. I'm guessing they might not have gone down that path. Regardless of whether the government looked for the $20's, Cooper still would not have known they stopped, therefore if he spent the money, he likely would have thought he was taking a big risk, and therefore may not have spent the money.

If it was 1971 and I had to bet, I would bet he lost the bag, or it ripped open. For that to have happened, the likely scenario was someone else found the money and kept it, knowing if they talked, they'd have to give it back. Or, it fell into the woods and is still there. However, it being 2020, and only 300 of the 10,000 bills have showed up, I would bet that he made it out with most of it. So the next logical question is "did he spend it?" Spending the money was one surefire way to get busted. Imagine it is now 1972, you haven't been caught, you see a number of composite sketches, you see many suspects, then it becomes later in the 1970's and they don't have you. What do you do? Do you start to spend the money? It's a huge risk. We know now that the FBI did not look too hard for the 20's, but Cooper would not have known that. Could he have spent the money? Certainly. If so, I think he would have had to doctor the bills somehow to avoid detection. Using them in a foreign country would be as dangerous as using them in the United States, maybe worse because the greenbacks would stand out in another country. Most likely scenario is he got away with the money, and did not spend much of it. That's my opinion. His payment was that he pulled off the heist. That was winning for him.

There are some posts at the Cooper Forum on the money bag. For the posters here-what are your theories on what happened to the rest of the money not found at Tina Bar? I'm wondering if any of it could possibly still be tracked today (are there enough $20's still in collectors hands that could be checked against the list of serial numbers?)

As I remember from looking a while back it was a little less than a half moon. I suspect he would have at least been able to see the lights from Interstate 5 to the west and Portland to the south, this would give him some sense of orientation.

Another observation. Cooper may or may not have known where the plane was, but I'm thinking at some point while he was descending under the parachute canopy, he would have had time to look around and possibly get his bearings. I've done it, but it was not under the same stressful conditions he was under, something tells me he did not have much time to enjoy the ride.

Great use of graphics Flyjack. 8:12 PM pressure bump/jump would put him landing right north of Battleground. If you're Cooper, chances are you want to walk south, so what scenario gets him to the Heisson General Store, on the railroad tracks, heading south?

If that break in was indeed done by DB Cooper, then it makes me wonder about a few things. The first would be why did he have to break into a store? What comes to mind is he either lost his survival gear/food in the jump, figured he didn't need any and maybe landed somewhere he thought he wouldn't, or didn't really plan it all out in advance. You would think he would have at least jumped with some food in his pockets. Would old police reports have an actual list of what was stolen? The other part that comes to mind is the use of railroad tracks to move through the area. It is certainly a good method, especially on Thanksgiving eve/morning. What is the final destination, is it a railyard, an actual passenger station, is he meeting someone somewhere, or even getting on a train? Lots of things to speculate about. His goal could have been to get to tracks, and it could have taken him hours to do so.

Any thoughts as to why he changed his mind? Or was it as simple as him asking for two because he assumed each set would have a main and a reserve? Certain air crews only jumped with a reserve. It was smaller and took up less space on the plane and could be put on faster. He may have been more comfortable with a reserve.

Robert, you stated "escaping by rail is unlikely" Do you have a percentage you could put to that? Like 10%, 20%, etc? For instance, the Cleveland Browns have a 0% chance of winning the Super Bowl, the Kansas City Chiefs maybe a 50%, etc. Not looking for deep math, but where would unlikely vs likely fall for you when it comes to escaping by rail, and what were the other options and those probabilities? If not rail, then all by foot, car, plane, boat, etc.

So you acknowledge he could have gotten on a train at a rail yard?

I can’t see which rail line that was. Chelatchie? I have better rail maps and can do some digging. An aircrewman like Hahneman or Smith would be drawn to rail lines for navigation and as targets for bombing and recon. Smith worked for the railroad, so would be even more likely to go to a rail. My theory is Cooper escaped by rail, likely with help.

That’s right in one of the most agreed upon drop zones. You would think the local police would have dusted for prints and if they found some, those would be on file.

Around 11:30. 3 hours and 15 minutes roughly after he landed. It’s on the flight path. He could have come from any direction, and may have been hurt. How far could he travel at night unhurt and hurt?

I personally was never a fan of the whole Dan Cooper comic book theory, but I guess you never know, and when following a trail, sometimes it opens your mind up to other things, and you find something else you did not know you were looking for. My thoughts on the Dan Cooper comic: The comic came out around 1954, outside of the USA. We suspect that DB Cooper was in his 40's or even 50's in 1971, which means he was born between say 1920 and 1930, so at the youngest, he would have been around 24 when that comic came out, still kind of old to be reading comic books (unlike today where a lot of ages are into comics due to the movies). And, he would probably have been non-American, because an American would likely have picked an American comic book hero. It was an FBI agent who came up with the idea. Maybe he used info that the public did not have and that's where he got the idea for the Dan Cooper comic book connection. However, I think it is just grasping at straws. The comic book connection does make me think of Leonardo DiCaprio's character in Catch Me If You Can and how he used comic book characters as aliases. (That was in the movie, but I don't remember it being in the book). There are so many little things that may be lost to history, like "Why did you choose Dan Cooper?" My guess is he knew what name he was going to use, so therefore he planned it in advance. Dan and Cooper could be from totally different parts of his life and could be two different people, or parts of others. I believe he knew someone in his life named Dan Cooper.