mikkey

Tributes and the like are posted in Talk Back. The incident forum is to discuss and learn from the incidents. Read the guidelines. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Let me guess - you don't like him? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Once - many years ago in a C-206 (no door). Main container of a student open at 1500 feet (spring loaded PC) due to KAP (old ADD) mal function (as said this is 20+ years ago). Wild scramble by load to catch and subdue PC, lines, main before it could get out of door (like 3 guys sitting on that poor fellow ). Pilot looked and his face turned a "whiter shade of pale" - and I have NEVER been so quickly back on the ground.

Whenever these tragedies happen, I think of Carl Boenish' well known quote: “Happy are those who dream dreams and are willing to pay the price to see them come true.” --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

This is partly off-topic, but please be aware of the dangers of changing between deployment methods. I had to go for terminal reserve ride due to this in the early 90's. At the time I was jumping a hand deploy system with PC on leg strap. Borrowed a rig with pull-out (pillow with velcro). I was on a RW jump that went a little low, so I found myself at passing 2000 feet at pull time. I was "used to" just to pull out PC from leg strap and release (PC already in air stream on the side of my leg). Because I was "stressed" by the altitude, I grabbed the pillow, pulled and released. Nothing happened because PC collapsed onto container in burble. I did not exactly know that, and because I was low and had no time to find out what was wrong, I went straight to cut away handle and silver. Main came out and flew away, no problem with reserve - deployed at 1000 feet. So what I am saying is, IF you want to check out different deployment systems (i.e. difference between BOC and Pull Out) - please be careful and do a lot of ground training. Changing even slight the way you do things can get you in trouble. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Just be aware that there is a big copyright notice on the videos, i.e. not allowed to make copies. Klaus Heller told me that the rights for NTSC are with Boenish' widow. BTW, check out the old ad at the end of the tape, it is so funny! It is Klaus' company advertising in German: Parachute T-shirts (worn by a lady in lingerie) and "skydiving under pants" for men (parachute printed right on "the spot") --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Thanks for your post. It made it more clear to me where you stand on the issue. You are probably right that the key to the argument is a cultural difference between the US and many other countries. "Personal freedom at all cost" if I may put it in simple terms - same thing with your gun laws. I think the US is the only "western" country where you are allowed to own fire arms (at least without many restrictions). So I now see your comments from that perspective and that is fair enough. Not that I share the "perspective". I and many others (including quite a few US skydivers on this forum) do not think The reason is that a lot of fatalities and injuries affect us negatively, both emotionally and practically, (e.g. insurance cost). I see your point - but does this not cut both ways, i.e. more fatalities and injuries = more expensive liability insurance? Happy you don't have a problem, some people get easily upset when you are dis-agreeing with them, so just wanted to make sure I was not misunderstood. Thanks for discussing the issue, in my mind it made it quite clear what to expect will happen (or not happen) in the US on this issue. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Just received the Boenish Videos from Germany. Very good quality and the company is nice to deal with. Only problem is he has not the right to NTSC. So it is PAL only. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Jan, A forum is for discussion and conversation. I find it common courtesy to tell people I have a discussion with who I am - that is all. It makes it easier to put comments into context. I find it important that you know that my background is not in the US - I have jumped in Europe and now Australia - in context of this discussion, it is something that might be useful in order to put some of my opinions into context. I still don't get it why you are using the situation 25 - 30 years ago as an argument. There might have been some fatalities in the US, where I jumped in Europe I can't remember landing fatalities at the time. I did not claim there were no landing accidents but the scale was totally different and that is why I say it is not relevant to the issue being discussed here. We might not know all the exact reasons, but there seems to be consensus around the fact that the margin of error you can "walk away from" under a HP canopy is dramatically smaller then under a big fat Strato Cloud in the 1980's. People stuffed up then but they survived the stuff up. Why do people stuff up? Mostly lack of training/skill and lack of experience. What are the suggestions made in these forums? Stop people with lack of experience jumping certain canopies and increase and improve the training. So I do not get your point. I might be stupid, but this is lame. Yes it was a lower percentage AND it was a dramatically smaller number in real terms. But in most countries there are regulations in regard to which equipment you can jump with certain licenses as well as mandatory use of AAD's and RSL and it has been a major reason for the decline of fatalities due to no pull or/and mishandling of mals. Cypres has (as far as I know) about 300 documented saves since the early 90's and in most countries Cypres is mandatory up to a certain number of jumps. I might be wrong but I thought students in the US have to use an AAD? Well, the first part of the quote makes me wonder if you are taking it serious enough. 2 points: 1) We all understand this is not easy. It is not easy to find a way forward / rules and it is not easy to implement any solution. Have you guys in the USPA discussed the issues in international forums with people who actually have regulations? Have you looked for feed-back from European countries who now had WL restrictions for some time and asked if they have seen results and what the implementation issues were? 2) Even if I obviously disagree with you - let me state that I admire people who give their time to work in organizations like the USPA. I understand it is difficult and I respect your efforts - so please do not take any of my comments as personal attacks. I just find this issue the greatest safety challenge the sport has world wide and I really would like to see actions to address the problem. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Thanks for that. Just surprised that Jan keeps this information out of the profile. It would be nice to know this when reading the comments. I agree that it is good that Jan reads these threads and cares to comment, but if I was a USPA member - which I am not - I would be concerned about that a director and a member of the safety and training committee is using issues regarding the introduction of the Para Commander more then 30 years ago as an argument (and I mean no dis-respect to Jan as a person). You can NOT compare the situation then - with what is happening now. A PC (or even early squares like strato cloud etc.) would very rarely kill you on landing. The sport as such has changed dramatically in the last 30 years. The equipment has become so much safer in general terms and the training ahs improved a lot - except for the main HP canopy issue. Look at the USPA stats for fatalities and see how all the other fatality reasons have declined over the last 10 years and what has happened to landing accidents. If Jan's attitude is typical for the USPA - you guys (Lisa, billvon, Ron etc.) who are pushing here on dz.com for the USPA to take action have no chance what so ever. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Hmmm, I find it difficult to comment on posts made by people who are not telling us anything about themselves in the profile. Quote: "The comments you see & read about today's 1.x+ WL were said 30 years ago when PCs were introduced. There were letters that blamed retailers for selling gear to people not qualified to use the gear. There were letters that blamed the mfgs for not implementing some sort of qualification program for the users. There were letters that blamed PCA/USPA for not implementing 'rules' that would mitigate the fatalties and injuries. " Now, I actually did start jumping exactly 25 years ago. At that time you had to have ~ 50 jumps to jump Para Commander and 115 to jump square parachutes (this was where I jumped in Europe and the latter had just being lowered from 200) - don't know what the rules in the US were at the time. One thing I can tell you is, that it is totally BS to compare issues around the introduction of the Para or even the square's to the current situation! Yes, people would probably brake a leg or so learning to fly these, but nothing like today. And actually the risk of minor injuries were higher on a beginner T-10 or C9 - 7 TU type due to harder landing and less steering capability (hitting objects, power lines, water etc.). Unfortunately your profile does not tell us if you are talking about first, second or third hand information. But I was actually around when PC's were still used and squares became the "norm" in the late 70's. No way did we have anything like we experience now, yes some injuries when people learned to fly squares, but nothing compared to this and not any fatalities I can remember to have been told about or read about. So please don't muddy the water with this type of stuff. The issue is to important. PS: "Lisa for President" (of the USPA) --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I have not seen any PPKU down here. I kow KAP are still legal and there is a company servicing them. I think most use FXC on the main for AFF (at least where I jump) and the SOS handle system. In regard to safety, have not heard about any major accidents with AFF students - except for you usual landing issues. Don't have stats but think safety record is very good for AFF in OZ. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

This thread is now back exactly where we have been before. Everybody is personalising it: "look at me I have x jumps and y wing loading and I am perfectly safe" and we have of course the argument: "regulation is not flexible enough - education is" bla, bla, bla, bla. Well, the issue is: 1) There are lot of regulations on the jump plane, on the ground, in regard to the equipment (why can't I jump PdF products in the US - it is not TSO's). and in regard to what you can do in free fall (including NUMBER OF JUMPS) and what it takes to get a licenses including stuff like displays (INCLUDING NUMBER OF JUMPS). But we do not want to regulate canopies even with the number of people getting killed and injured? 2) You want to do anything about it and you want something that actually can be implemented? Well you have to do include some kind of ratio between jumps and wing loading. It is not perfect but it is the only way. I find it sad if the sport is getting "back" to a reputation of being suicidal. I actually been called a bad father because I took up jumping again. I want to be in a safe sport (or as safe as possible). I am now in my mid-40's, when I first started I was 19. I can tell you that I was a young fool at the time who knew it all, was able to do it all and I nearly kille myself. I have a very different attitude to the sport now and I still make mistakes and have "brain locks" - which is why I keep my wing loading conservative. So when some 100 jump wonder aged around 20 writes here how perfectly safe they are under a HP canopy - I just remember how I used to think. Anyway, like it or not, Ron has the only sensible approach even if it is not perfect - if you want to do something about the problem. PS: Have a collegue who also jumps - and has several hundre jumps. Jumps a Sabre 150 conservatively loaded aroudn 1.1 I think. He wanted to down size until recently. Then had a bad landing due to a simple mistake on landing - and got very bruised (and lucky it was not more then that). He has now put the down sizing on hold. Go figure... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

That is exactly the type of guy who will kill himself. 50 jumps and 1.3 on a 120 canopy. Remember him from another thread (dead man walking) where he claimed he was perfectly safe under this canopy because he stood up on most of his landings.... This is exactly the reason why I tend to agree with Ron. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

2 points: Firstly, you are giving comfort to people who think that all Americans are arrogant people who without much (or any) knowledge of other countries and cultures are telling them how to live their lives. I have both friends and familiy in the US, but it pisses me off big time when some Americans think that the US way of doing things is always the best. And clearly it is not - look at your crime rate, your education system, your participaction rate at elections etc. etc. So just because you visited some countries don't think you can judge them. You are clearly showing the "ugly" American face by rambling on about these countries without even having the facts right. I assume you watch "Fox News" a lot 2. This has nothing to do with the operation of Skydiving in those countries, so your post is irrelevant. I have no statistical data, but I am quite sure that the accident rate for canopy landings is probably lower in countries where there is some regulation. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well, a lot of countries have wing loading regulations. It would be interesting to study landing accident "rates" per 1000 jumps and see if those countries have a better record then the US. Doubtful if you could get those stats. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Reserves are designed and packed differently in order to open much faster using less altitude. They have a more simple design and have free bag, wide bridel etc. etc. and packed by a rigger very carefully so that it does not mal (at least much less likely then a main). Do you jump? If you are a skydiver you should know this.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well, those Norwegians talk funny (I am Danish and normally can understand Norwegian) . If I got it right, it looks like a low pull and the jumper is gone straight for reserve. The guy on the ground asks him something and the reply is difficult to understand, but could be something about getting to low. The camera guy then clearly says "I saw you both" and "you made the right decision" and checks if the cypres has fired and he comments "its fine" probably meaning it has not. Main is clearly still in container and you can see that the main risers are attached to the 3-ring. So from that I think it is simply a freefly jump gone too low and the guy activated the reserve. Nice video by the way. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

This is very US centric. There are a few manufacturers outside the US who manufacture very good rigs at a lower price. If you live "down under" you need to look at locally produced Talons (FS & "3") - they are very good rigs at a much better price (at least down here) then US produced rigs with only a few weeks delivery time. Same can probably be said for European rigs. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I have been in contact with Klaus Heller of "Skydivingvideos.de" and ordered the Boenish movies on PAL videos. I asked Klaus in regard to NTSC copies for the US market and this is what he replied: "Carl Boenish was a good friend of mine. After his death I made an agreement with Jean, that I could keep the rights for the PAL-area based on the contract I already had with Carl. I still have a very loose contact with Jean, but it looks like she is not interested to continue the business. That´s why Carl´s films are not to be found on NTSC. For my business, I also want to keep concentrated on the PAL-market." --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

The great thing about the Neptune getting to the market is that the prices of audibles will most certainly fall. L&B have been making very good money on their design (well deserved I may add) - but their product has been on the market for so long and electronic components should have become cheaper over time that it is about time for the prices to reduce. So let's see how good the Neptune is. I just can not understand why people would use it as a alti --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

"I have tried to talk my wife into at least doing a tandem to see what freefall is like, but she's lost her sense of adventure and doesn't even want to come out to the DZ. It's disappointing and scary, because her ma used to be fun and adventurous too, but turned into a real church lady bitch. " I just hope for your own safety that your wife does not read dz.com. Man would you be in trouble.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Wow! That guy should compete in accuracy. Nice job! --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Thanks for the information. So Bob Sinclair was one the guys, who was the other jumper? Any additional information about the show, like how long it ran etc.? Edit: I have ordered the Video with the 3 Boenish movies. Assume they will be of good quality. The company seems to own the rights and the owner is a well known freefall photographer and film maker himself. Will let you know after I receive them. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Does not ring a bell. But remember it is at 35 - 40 years ago I saw this, but the "feel" burnt itself into my childhood mind that I had to try this later on in life. Just did a search in this forum and it is mentioned that Bob Sinclair did a TV show call "Ripcord" (?). Could that be the one I am thinking off?? And while I am on the "memory lane" - I would love to buy the old Boenish movies they showed me in the 70's when I first started skydiving. Anybody know if I can buy them in Australia? Or order it somewhere else (in PAL) and get it send down here? Edited: Ooops, just saw the thread regarding the the Boenish movies. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.