Ron

1 2 3 4 5 ???? Thats 5 words??? And what is an AirPspeed? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope..I don't get nervous. Tandems...I would not call it nervous...I would call it VERY aware, I don't take them for granted. When I do something I have not done in a while like a 40 way, or video...Well there is an awareness to be more careful. But like I said no, I don't get nervous. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats why you need both...Education AND experience...You can get education many ways...But the ONLY way to get experience is to jump...You only get one landing per jump (If you are lucky) so the number of jumps you have can be used to judge basic experience. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Exactly! When you found out to skydive you had to do 5 static lines, or 7 AFF levels insted of just putting a rig on and going for it like they did in the "old days" (that so many people scream about being better than today). You didn't quit did you? Nope you did what it took to do what you want...And the USPA has BSR in place to protect you until you know enough to handle it yourself...And even then you still have BSR's that effect you. So all I want is for there to be a process in place that: A. Protects jumpers from making poor choices in Equipment. We need this because quite frankly the target group sometimes just will not listen, and peer preasure is not working. Many retailers will sell to anyone that has the cash. Now, I have put my money where my mouth is everyday. I only do buisness with retailers, and companies I know to have morals...In fact I sent back a FREE canopy to a company that I found to be selling 1.6 loaded elipticals to guys with 200 jumps. And bought a Stiletto. I can't even start to tell you the number of people I have told to be careful, and then latter seen carried off. So if these people are unwilling to listen they should be restricted to more docile WL's till they learn enough at the "canopy school of broken femurs". This process also has to have a normal progression in place for those that can't afford/find and don't want/will not take the additional training to allow them to progress to higher WL's. The Germain program is a very good (In fact the best base I can find). It still allows people to progress as their experience grows. B. It HAS to have a way to bypass the "rule" to allow those that are truely skilled and have the desire to really study canopy flight...A practical test will allow this. My plan of being able to qualify for the PRO is a good base..10 landings inside a circle...If you can REALLY fly the canopy you have it should be no problem. And it is easy as hell to judge even for someone that can not even hook. I can teach a wuffo to judge this. Did he land in the circle standing up...Yes? Did he do it 10 times? Yes? Congradulations here is your sign off for the next WL level. The simple facts are that SOMETHING has to be done. Just education will not work...The ones that need it don't go get it. So you can progress at the normal rate if you like. Or you can test out to a higher WL. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The restriction is to keep unqualified people from flying wings that have been shown to increase the chances of death and injury before they have the experience or training to fly them. The restriction is not the goal...the goal is to make the ones that want to fly high WL's to get additional training before they attempt it. The graduated scale relates to WL so that people that want to progress slowly are allowed without the hassle of the classes..But they can progress "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I never said you were wrong... Fact is that 15 years ago it was VERY rare to have a guy die under a good canopy. So you are right, if we made everyone jump at less than 1 to 1 you are correct fatalities would drop. However in the real world that is not very practical...So in theory it is correct in application it is not. Why is it hard for you to admit that some people who have more experience than you, do have have better ideas than you do? And as for the facts...well if I had them you would just claim that they are not the real numbers, or want another study done to prove the first set conclusive. It would never end for you. You are smart...I would think that you could see the trends. But insted it seems you would rather bitch about the lack of paper facts than do anything... I may not have your education, but I do have much more experience in relation to this. But I guess without the PHD I don't have a clue huh? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Whats wrong with a progressive (although not to much) WL that has been written? If you want a higher WL than allowed test out of it. This would allow people to increase the WL in relation to Experience, or proven skills...And not make people do things they don't want to do (HP landings,CRW..ect). I think it is the best answer. The actual WL's and the way of determining experience could be ironed out a little more. I personally think it is already a good balance..If you don't like it, PROVE you can do better and you would be allowed. How is that not a good system? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And here you show that you are a teacher, not a buisness person. 100% is a dream that only happens in school. 18%-19% is a good return. Welcome to the real world Dr. Kallend Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No offense Lisa...But to water it down to make it better for people to swallow is not my idea of a good thing. I don't think it we should put out something that does not address the problem just because it is easy to do. The easiest thing to do would be to just keep calling 911 every weekend. Education is the answer...I agree, but unless we make it manditory we will miss the target audience...Besides three years after it goes into effect no one will be bitching about it. They will not know anything different...Which is why new student don't complain about the ISP (Where it is being done) They don't know any other way. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

As for the tricks...there is another post where I put my opinions on them... I don't do them. A tandem termial reserve opening is not my idea of a good time. While you are flipping you are most likley going past the 10 seconds or less to drouge toss advice. Going to T terminal just puts more wear on the gear, and just increases risks. I give the student a ripcord and an Alti. I ask if they want to pull, but most say no. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If the winds are pushing hard enough you will be backing up under canopy...If you put your side or back to the wind...You will be blown away from the spot MUCH faster. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thanks for posting this....It is better written than the one I have posted before. I see 18%-19% possible "Save" rate.... If this were a buisness, it would of already been put in place. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope...I have only pointed out your attitude...not challenged your comments. I think that education is the key...but youre example shows that it is not the whole picture. Less experienced jumpers should not have high wingloads, unless they can PROVE they can ahdle them... Which is why I like a test they have to pass, not just take a class. And thats why I think they should be able to qualify for the PRO under the current canopy before they are allowed to downsize out side of the WL restrictions Germain came up with . Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What will keep someone from not doing this, and getting a high WL? We have said before, the people that need the training are not going to take it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

We have gotten the data..several very experience people see the issue and agree on the problem...But I guess thats not the "Correct" way to do it... Why di I think that if we had the info on paper...You would then just argue that it didn't come from a reputable source? It is how it works in skydiving. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No it is a reason why the WL number do not have to be taken down to the nth degree. It is showing that a 2000 foot rule is good...you are responsable to know that your canopy snivels, mal ant a greater rate ect....But don't bust the deck. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ok look at 10 yeras it is the same thing...Hell look at 20 years.. As the canopies become alvailable people with out the experience will get them....And with out training a large number will get hurt. It has been this way for years. Round vs square. Square vs Eliptical... It goes on.. But only last year did the avg number of dead folks drop FAST AS HELL... And the reason is because people with 300 jumps now CAN get them so they will. This trend will continue until guys are wanting a Stiletto 97 with less than 100 jumps...OH wait that is already happening! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

My opinion....Oh shit here it goes. A skydiver is a person who jumps,pulls,deals with mals...ect. If all you do is Tandems...you are not a skydiver. You have skydived. For that matter if I quit jumping, I will not call myself a skydiver anymore. It truth I don't call myself a skydiver...I tell people I skydive...It's something I *do* not who I am. And I live on a DZ in FL. I still don't call myself a skydiver. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Quade...read the other thing I wrote.... It would be used only if you wanted to exceed the WL BSR.... If you didnt care, you could stay in this one: 100 1.1 200 1.2 300 1.3 If you wanted to downsize where it would take you out of this..Then you have to qualify on your current canopy. This would show that you have enough skill under that wing and are ready for another. He would only need it if he wanted to go 1.2 to one. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, you only need to be able to qualify for the PRO if you wanted to exceed the standard rate.. So if you just wanted to jump..you could you would just have to stay in the WL BSR. If you were the type that wanted to downsize faster than the plan...You would have to prove you have the skills to do it. So not everyone would have to do this only the eager learners. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Why? It seems to me that if you can't plan your flight path to touch down then you still need work. Fences don't get out of your way...You can't tell a tree to move even though you have the sweetest surf righ between two other trees. Stopping is a very good way to gauge if a person can really control his canopy. Canopy control is not about just getting a surf...It is about controling the canopy and making it fly the path you want..including stopping where you want. Ask Clint if he can do it...I bet he can..JC I bet he can also. If you can control your canopy...you can do it. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, but its VERY plain in the last two years...This has been going on since 93..When the ST came out..But you didn;t know that did you? Like I said read a little..then comment "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

just look at the last two years John "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Try acting like an adult. Forum rules are no personal attacks.. Of course you will claim later that you never said it. If you feel like slamming me...send me an email..I don't want this otherwise good discussions locked because you resort to name calling....better yet just don't do it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So you could do it with the waivers, or a class. Then why don't you before you enter a conversation? You did just that...You said you progressed faster than the norm...What the hell else could that mean? For what its worth I am not the only one to point this out. nothing...but when your "statement of fact" is stinking of ego..and you will not even admit that it sounded ego filled...well, what do you want? You claimed to be better than the norm...OK maybe you are I pointed out that almost everyone thinks they are above avg...You claimed I was slamming you I also pointed out that the very best have also died/gotten fucked up...Again I must be slamming you. You said I got you all wrong... How could I when you said that you progressed faster than the norm? Yep for some but for mine (Which if you read before jumping into the frey) I wanted people to be able to qualify for the PRO rating on the canopy they have now before they are allowed to downsize...Its not perfect, but ANY S&TA can tell if you landed in a circle and stood it up. And if you don't have the quality people there to be able to decide if you are safe...then you don't have the quality of people to teach you how to fly that tiny canopy...And that means that you are doing it all on your own...Exactly what we are trying to prevent. Then maybe you don't want it bad enough? You don't want to have to EARN the right to do as you please by showing skills and good judgment? And if there is the need...then the process will happen. Maybe YOU could be the one that gives this classes...And sign people off? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334