Ron

BSR's govern ALL aspects of skydiving, not just students. I have to be current to do a Demo, I had to get a PRO to do some harder Demos. If we used your logic..There would be no BSR's after you get an "A". So your argument of But then why have BSR's for pull altitudes for a guy with a license? Is a valid reply. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't care about pissing the guy off...I care about him not getting hurt/killed. How? If it is unsafe it is unsafe...If it is safe it is safe. Then maybe they will listen REALLY well. If the person does not have the emotional maturity to not skydive mad, or let a distraction such as a "unsolicited advice in an unwelcome way"...Then they should not be jumping. Again its BS to think that a guy is going to be MORE dangerous because he was talked to. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then why do we have BSR's that effect licensed jumpers? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have been told by many people that when in a big way I should just keep tracking and throw out in the track. But he said he did it to open faster...I have been told this as well. Well I agree that the FALL RATE will decrease, but there will also be forward motion that will help with the deployment. Use your skills to fiqure out what the speed of a jumper in a good track is when you factor both fall rate and forward speed. If you can prove it...I have no problem learning something new. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, It is from another article to show that the current plan of letting S&TA's and peer groups, and canopy education without making it manditiory is not working... I am sorry you thought I was quoting you. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Annoying yes...Dangerous, No. And I would agree if I sat there with a bull horn and yelled at him WHILE he was doing something...But if I waited for you to park the car, and then said don't cut people off. It should not be a danger, and in fact it IS dangerous to cut people off. Just cause you LIKE it, does not make it safer. What if I like to pull low? Or hook so that I have to dig it out? I can see your first point, but then it comes as an issue of is the guy that does not want to listen have an ego that prevents him from taking advice? But I don't see how walking up to a guy after he has landed and telling him he is doing something wrong would INCREASE his risk. It's still BS. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Robin...He said That IS BS. Everytime someone said I was doing something stupid...I at least LISTENED to them. Even if I didn't agree. He is saying that by bringing up to someone that they are doing something taht you don't agree with that you are INCREASING the risk... Thats BS. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I agree that the cure is education, but what to do when people don't listen, and the S&TA's don't do anything? Then why didn't anyone stop this guy? They knew he was in danger. But the system failed didn't it? Education is available, but without making it required...It will not be taken by many. Now this guy had 800 jumps, so some of the proposed regulations would not have effected him directly. But it shows that just peer preasure, and the S&TA's watching the jumpers is not going to work either. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

How in the hell do you reach that conclusion? I see it as he opened in track to open his canopy faster. And in fact he said just that...Where do you get that his track was bad? He never said that he opened in a track to continue to get away from everyone. You just went to apples when he said oranges. Ron FWIW...The guy has 7,000 jumps...I bet he tracks just fine "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This is such bullshit. I can't believe you honestly think this way. So if I care about someone I should not tell him when he is doing something stupid because it will just add to the danger? Again BS. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Interesting question...... Our team had a soild 18 in the sights this year. We think it could have happend. We started the season with a 16.6 with only 20 jumps together. However it was a team made up of people that have done 4 way for a number of years, and one of the players had been PRO for 3 years. We had 300 jumps, and almost 30 hrs of tunnnel planned. DeLand Genesis (PD Blue later) did a 19.1 at the 99 Nationals. This was I think was the last "Weekend" year for them. But this team had been together for 4 years, and much longer in various other forms. 97 13.0 98 16.2 99 19.1 00 20.4 So yes, I think an 18 can happen for a weekend team. It would take a few years with the same line up. 300-400 jumps a year and several tunnel camps. However by the time a team reaches the 18 mark, they most likley will get sponsorship somewhere. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

At one time students HAD to jump rounds. Students HAD to have a spring loaded PC. ROL was considered safer than BOC. You had to have 20 round jumps before you could jump a square. AADs were very dangerous at one time, and you had a death wish if you jumped one. Tell me, when was the last time you saw a round jumped? B12's on a sport rig? A ROL? A Belly band? An FXC? Someone threw WDI's? The sport changes...In 10 years these wingloadings will not seem as bad as they are today, just like you don't put students out on rounds anymore, and AAD's are considered to be safe. This is where experience comes in...The people that have been around awhile have seen the trends. You would be amazed at the things that we do now that were "black death" 10 years ago. Still it does not mean we should do nothing. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No the PHYSICS of skydiving can be shown on a computer. Skydiving can't be learned on a comupter or on this site. There is no way to make skydiving an academic exercise. If it was we would not need AFF, just a good class room session. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The problem with your chart is it still lets 300 jump wonders have 1.5 with out any training. It says its ok for them. But it is this number combination that is the most fatal. 300 jumps 1.5 Wingload. Your chart would do nothing but tell people its ok. Except they would have 300 jumps more experience. And might make a better judgment. I knew more at 500 jumps than I did at 200. I bet most people agree that they did as well. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This is funny. I used to pull at 1,400 feet on every jump. Now people get scared below 2 grand. I am now in the saddle by 2,200 ish or so. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Does your DZ use Vectors? RW said (I don't know if they still do) that a person needs 500 jumps to fly with a tandem. Srong only says that it is up to the TM. Anyway Wingnut, congrats. And be safe...The first time I almost died was around 300 jumps while videoing a tandem. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Don't you think think that it IS the responsibility of the Instructors and others to look after the group? Or should everyone do as they please? Does the USPA have no reason to exist? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

However at the time they were written, they made sense. With the training getting better over the YEARS, there were new methods created. And the BSR's were changed when they were out dated. Seems like it all made sense, and when they didn't they were removed. Same could be done here. Given the choice of listening to a few folks with several years and a few thousand jumps, or some guys with a couple of years and a few hundred jumps...Odds are that the few years/few thousand jump group has a better grasp than the couple of years/ few hundred jump group. Do you know more now at 1,230 jumps than you did at 400? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Having done both... They both can be as safe, or as risky as you let them. Take a guy with no experience or education with a high WL...Well, I think everyone knows where I stand on that. A guy that takes the same approach that a lot of swoopers do when it comes to BASE will end up just as dead. If they think they know what they are doing, and don't listen to the guys with more BASE jumps than them...Well I fiqure they are a crater waiting to happen. FWIW I only have 2 BASE jumps...I didn't like them. A lot of work climbing a tower for a few second freefall. I might do it again, but its not something I could really get into. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Do you think everyone agreed with the pull altitudes when they came out? That students should not jump squares? Then that students should jump squares? Or how about BOC vs ROL for students? Nope. The fact is that the individual DZ's came up with programs, so more restrictive, some less, others none. And then it became a BSR....Hide and watch, USPA eventually WILL enact a WL restriction...It just apears that this is not that time. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And thats why the first one I wrote only had regulation to 500 jumps. At some point you have to trust that a guy has enough experience to know what he should or should not be doing. I personally don't think it is at the 300 jump level, and the landing fatalities seem to show that as well. And there was a way to test out of the regulation if you could PROVE you had the skills. I don't mind making EVERYONE test out, but that has a snowballs chance in hell of ever happening. The best thing we can do is to provide a guidline for "normal" canopy progression, with a way for those that want to to test out to a higher wiingload. Is not that far from the: 100 1.1 200 1.2 300 1.3 400 1.4 500 1.5 That I wrote about. (Thanks to Brian) Its not perfect, but it is a start. And if that person is truely a good canopy pilot, then they could PROVE it, and downsize. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And you damn well know I will. You are right in the middle of the range and wingload of the dead skydivers last year. The fact that you blew that last hook, and that you did it in an area that had turbulance...makes me question Everyone thinks they are ahead of the power curve. For your sake, I hope you are correct. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh yeah, I am loving it... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

My only issue with PLF's is that if you have to PLF, then you messed up somewhere, and that it is showing your lack of ability to fly the canopy... A PLF is a very good way to prevent you from getting injured AFTER you screw up. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I still do it, but its harder now than it used to be. Back at my old ARK. DZ I use to get a student and do a bunch of two ways with them. Then I would get another and jump with him a lot. I would then put those two together and go get another. The first guy was to look after the second, the 1st and second after the third. Then they would all look after the 4th....It went on like this for sometime. Today however most students don't want to be treated like they need anyone. I have been told by some of them that they don't need me messing with them. True story: At one DZ the winds were not ideal for jumping...In fact I was not jumping due to them. A guy with 100 jumps went to go manifest. One of the AFF I's out there (That has more jumps and experience than most will EVER have) told this guy that the winds were not good for jumping. This 100 jump wonder still wanted to manifest. I walked up to him while he was at the window and told him that I would not jump, and he might want to think about it. He said "Why don't you assholes just leave me alone? I know what I am doing! Stop treating me like a student!" There are several people here that have called me a "SkyGod" because I think that someone with 100 jumps does not know enough to make sound choices, and I think they should listen to the people that have many more jumps, and tons more experience..... Now why should I continue to put myself in a position to be yelled at, and called names when I try to help? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334