Ron

Fair? No, but life is not fair. Most times is it accurate? Yes. Most times it is a correct assumption. Every skydiver? No. But most, yes. And age, sex and currency also play factors. But if you don't care enough to disclose some very easy to give information, why should I care to treat you any differently? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

More than just me, you and her read this...How do you know I'm talking to the wrong person? Actually no, my actual quote was: So I never said not to listen...I said I treat them as suspect, and that people on the fence on if they are going to listen to them will not. Simple thing is it takes 10 seconds to add a jump #...Give me a good reason NOT to do it? Right but new folks on here don't know your history...A simple look at your jumps #'s and time in sport will tell them what you basic understanding is. It will also quantify some of your experiences. You might be more qualified to talk to someone with 14 jumps about jump fear than me. But it would also show that I might be more qualified than you to discuss body position. For this I can only say get a thinker skin. While it is wrong to "Bash" someone just based on jump #'s it is in my opinion worse to let a person give bad information. You will not see me just say "Shut up you only have 10 jumps"...You WILL see me say at your expereince level you don't have the big picture or the experience to make those calls. And like it or not if I say that, I feel you don't. I never slam someone for asking a question...I correct people who give advise beyond the scope of their experience. A guy with 300 jumps telling a guy with 70 that a 1.5 wingload is OK for him. Is wrong. Neither in that group has the experience to make that call. Again they should grow a thicker skin. Ok if not for you, since you spend a lot of time on here what about the new people who sign up everyday? How are they going to know who to trust in what area? I know I can trust your opinion on realestate, and I would like to think that you could trust my thoughts on RW. But how is a new person going to know that? Post your damn jump #'s and deal with the BS from those that are going to try and use it against you. It is for the better good of the whole, not just a single persons ego. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You mean like all the posts on lowtimers and small HP canopies? They should get over that. Being humble is the best way to learn. It is also very accurate. And most who think its a good idea to jump HP canopies with little of no experience will not listen anyway. So does..."You have 10 jumps and you really don't know what you are atalking about" . The difference is that you want to be be popular, I just want them to be safe. I have learned that my approach is for those that would rather be told the truth and not be treated like children. And the simple truth is that those that are going to listen are going to listen no matter what the approach is...Those that will not listen wil not no matter how sugar coated I make it. You forgot the show them they are wrong...Which you said you did in the proir example. As it is here I still write so that maybe that person does not read it, but someone else does. If the person does not care to listen I am not going to beg them to listen...They will or will not meet an early demise due to their stupidity. I presented the information and if the choose to listen I will teach them all day long. If they choose to ignore me..Then thats a choice they make. I used to care that they listen...Now I know they never will, and I can save my time for those that will. as for your option #3...That is the one thing I don't agree with when it relates to skydiving...Low timers giving skydiving advice is a dangerous path. And I don't want that path littered with bodies. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

57% "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Anyone heard about the DeLand in air fire yet? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

There is a big differnece between an angry Mob of the families of at least 3,000 people and the families of 10-20 small children. Also, its not like the Saudi government would let us hold them for protection. The safest place for them was out of the country. And if they KNEW it was comming, don't ya think they would not be here in the first place? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What if they told you you were wrong and a crappy instructor? You have told me that before...case in point: Well what if you voiced your opinon many times and all the time they told you that you were wrong? The problem with skydiving is that *SMACK* sound is often a body hitting the ground and exploading like a water ballon. Just like I use fatality reports. But why do some people still think a 1.5 loaded Stiletto at 100 jumps is OK? When I taught martial arts I did the the same thing you talked about..I showed them why...The difference is that they didn't have to die to learn the lesson. If fact, just like I am sure you can I could pull the attack so I hit them just hard enough to let them know I could have done more. We are dealing with life and death here. The ground does not pull its punches. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Will, Many people want to think they are better than the number of jumps they have done. While jump numbers are not a perfect way to determine experience and skill thay are easy to record or prove. And there is a certain presumed ability level that is attached to each jump. A guy with 1,000 jumps is more likley to perform better than a guy with 100 jumps. Just as the guy that has done ten 100 ways is more qualified and much more likley to perform well on a 200 way than a guy that only has one 100 way under his belt. The problem is that everyone wants to think they are not the norm, that they are "special", that they are more skilled, have more knowledge, and are smarter than others at the same number of jumps. While it COULD be true...Most times it is not. Well people with low jump numbers don't want to be labled as a certain skill level. So they lie about the number of jumps they have, or just don't tell people. These people in most cases are hiding their experience to to taken more seriously, or to aviod the stigma of being a low timer. Simple facts are that while not being 100% accurate what police call "profiling" does work. If there was a violent crime and you have two suspects, one a little 70 year old lady with a cane, and a 17 year old kid that is punched and inked...Who would you think its was? Well a guy with 100, 200, 300 ect jumps very rarely will not fit into the "normal" experince curve. However, people (particularly skydivers and others in "high risk" sports) don't like to think they are the norm, or that they are not special. There is a funny quote I like : "Remember you are special and unique, just like everyone else". While I could not give a rats ass what people list on their profiles, cause I have enough experience to see right through the BS (When it comes to general skydiving...If it were a topic on a subject I know nothing about..such as freeflying, I tend to keep my mouth shut.) In fact many times when I want to feel like a flailing geek, I go do a FF jump with someone that has 3000 less jumps than me, but they have 300 more FF jumps than me and make me look stupid. When I do this I shut my mouth and listen to their EXPERIENCE since they have more than me....But I would not listen to them when it comes down to flying a canopy in traffic, or some other area where my experience is greater than theirs. Some people don't want to listen and will argue every little thing even if it is clear they are much less skilled. Some of these people to avoid be seen as having less experience or knowledge just simple lie, or don't fill out the profile. The danger is not me listening to them, but a guy that has 100 jumps and can't tell the poster is full of shit. If they can look and see two people saying opposite things...And both posters have honestly filled out their profiles. It can help them decide if they want to listen to the guy with 3000+ jump and several ratings over 11 years or the guy with 1 year and 100 jumps with no ratings. If this were my site you would not be allowed to post unless your profile had some basic information, and for jump #'s things like "Never enough" , "More than you" and "None of your buisness" would not be allowed to be entered. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And how do you feel about a white belt having an opinion on which style or technique is better? Only within the realm of your experience...I know a guy that thought he was getting a great deal on a ZP 9 cell canopy with only 300 jumps on it....I asked him what was the name of the canopy...He said Nova....When I explained the history of that canopy he realized that the deal was not that good. Just like the Yellow belt is qualified to decide if a kata is realistic? In this particular case (CYPRES dependancy) it has been talked about so much I'm sick of it...Plus a quick search could give you all the info you would hope for. As for the jump number thing....Well someone that refuses to give a jump number I treat just like I used to treat those martial artists that said they studied but would not give me any info about the style they took, the rank the reached, or how long they took it. I suspect them. Yep, but many times their opinon is just flat wrong. Why you will not listen? Do you listen to every Yellow belt that expresses an opinion of how certain moves in a "one step" sequence should be done? This whole thread is about how some jumpers hide their jump numbers. The reason is cause they don't want to listen and want to be taken more seriously than their experience warrents. Then you have those that will not listen to any advice other than the advice they want to hear. Either way I'm done. This is not a CYPRES thread and you and I have gone over this very topic about 100 times...You don't see the issues with CYPRES dependancy, and I do. Realize that in Skydiving I am the Black Belt and you are a White Belt. You are entitled to opinions all day long..That does not make them right...My opinions are not always right either..But given the choice of listening to a guy with 11 years and 3400 jumps, or someone with 50 jumps over a year...I'd have to say I have more knowledge and experience. In a Dojo that may easily be reversed, and you would not see me question you all day long. The problem with lack of experience is you always think you have enough...And you never realize you don't have enough. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And large amounts of people listen to only the advice they want...Reguardless of the source. Black goes with everything. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Based on your knowledge and experience, you are correct. But its kinda like training Karate without any contact. I have seen a BB get into a fight and pull his first attack...Just like he had trained for three years. He didn't even hurt the guy. Once he realized that he pulled his punches...He changed his plan and his second attack worked. But he was very open to counter attack while he re-evaluated the situation. I have also seen guys get hit for real for the first time. Later he told me that he never realized how much we held back when sparring. The funny thing about dependance is you never know you are until you find out. And again at your experience level its the right call...But realize you are not training full contact. Edit to add: Not tying to turn this into a CYPRES thread...I have learned that those that don't understand/don't care about my view points will never listen. But the jump numbers thing is clear. You would only hide them to hide a portion of your experience. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Maybe you still don't have enough experience? 50 jumps is not a lot. While I can see WANTING a CYRPRES (and I have one) my issue has always been people NEEDING them. (Seperate issues and off topic) If you had a classic 57 Chevy, but it didn't have seatbelts...would you ever drive it? Yes, but both still know jack shit about actual skydiving. While I might listen to a rigger with less jumps than me about gear, I would not listen to his advice about body position. I think its pretty simple...Post your jump numbers (And be honest) and if your words are good people will listen no matter what you jump #'s are..And if your words are BS then they will not. But it does help with people who are on the fence about if they should listen to you or not. I for one am glad we got rid of the stupid post # ranking system...It just confused the issue. The only reason to not list your jump #'s (Or a close guess as to what they are...Does it matter I have 3400 jumps and just list 3000+? I don't think so...But 50 or 450 is a BIG difference.) Is to try and hide your experience level. Well, thats fine if you want to post in "Bonfire" or some other Community forum. But when you start posting in the Informative forums...Well your experience is very valuable. Its not always 100% accurate, but it is a good start. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

sorry I take mine to the gym where I work out to try and let others read them...maybe someone will call up and make a jump. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I guess you would have ratherd we lynch them instead of protect them? Cause people would have right after 9/11 if they were able to get a hold of them. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Note to self....don't piss off lawrocket. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Any revolution performed today would not be one of pure fighting. It would be political, and it would be one where media spin would be the most powerful tool. A bunch of folks could not walk on DC with weapons with this economy....Now have a few nukes go off in the US, and the economy fall into the toilet and you never know what could happen. Many revolutions were atsrted by people IN the military. So if given the choice between following a popular General, or an unpopular President....Who knows? And lets not forget peoples desire to follow others. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well some of us use "Tunnel Rat" as a way to describe a person who has a large amount of tunnel time. You have made a sub group. Thats cool, but I don't have to agree to that same definition. So I can still call a person with tons of tunnel but not a number issued by you as a "Tunnel Rat"...Maybe the people I am thinking about are not part of your group, maybe they are...But by mine, and by others definitions...They are tunnel rats...Just maybe not card carrying members of your club. Yes, but this is how it went down. You said: And I agree with that assesment. However I added: You took offense to that. While you may think I was slamming your card carrying group. I in fact am using a definition that many people use. And stating an observation that I have had...One that has been supported by your own words. You didn't like me questioning your authority in this area: which I replied that while you opinion was valid, so was mine. You instead, decided to try to discredit my opinion by claiming that no one in the "Know" knew me (The "being in the know" by being known by your friends...Not exactly scientific research) And this just made no sense: I have to be honest, I don't really follow that sentance at all. Then you ASSUME that I am talking about you: Then you try to slam me by bringing up the past posts...posts which you argued with me as much as I did you...But I guess Im the bad guy right? I don't follow your logic at all. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

True True Thats a jump there. Where did I say that? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The bitch about dependance...Is that you don't know you are dependant. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

SkyVenture Orlando...The tunnel most on here think of when you say "Tunnel". Really???? WOW thats some ego. I know plenty of folks I would call tunnel rats. I do love how you have said you have to EARN being a tunnel rat....By whos standards? And you are tunnel rat #1???? I would give that title to many others....Oh like Thomas, Eliana just to name a few. And you know ALL the "tunnel rats" in the world? Well the simple thing is you said: And I said Just like there are tunnel rats that don't like skydiving This quote form you seems to say you prefer tunnel to skydving: But like I said I know of others....But you don't. I guess since you are Tunnel Rat#1 (BTW who gave you that title?) I guess I must be wrong. What the hell would I know? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

None of my friends know you either...So that means exactly nothing....Hell, I stopped by the tunnel last night. I asked around here at Zhills about you and no one knew you. I said that I know tunnel rats that hate skydiving.... From YOU: Also from you: You mean like Just cause your little group of friends don't know me means nothing. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Still a fact, I know several tunnel rats that hate skydivers and skydiving....Or just slam them as much as they can. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Maybe, but if you ask me I say I have not had a problem but there are problems....Kerry will not stick to anything "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Just like there are tunnel rats that don't like skydiving "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Becasue they all like to think they are better than the number of jumps they have done, a nd want to be listened to. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334