Ron

The "conservitive" people who hook in are most times : A. Avoiding an obstical B. Trying to turn into the wind. You can avoid these errors by: A. If you are not sure you can make it to the landing area, select an alternate area by 1,000 feet or higher. Ask yourself if you will make the landing area..and if you have to think about it...put down in a sfer area that has no obsticals/ B. Learn that you can land down wind...Its not pretty, and its not fun (unless you really know what you are doing) but it is ALWAYS safer to land with your canopy level than in a turn..Even if it means hitting an object. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well, hell, the first time I was told that I thought it was crazy talk. I later found it to be true...But it SOUNDS crazy. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

When people try hard to keep eye contact they many times bend their spine...This makes it so that they have to include and counter the effects of the bend in the spine to help them turn....The fewer imputs you need to control the easier it is to learn the correct movements. Tunnel is a great way to learn this. Solos are good as well. You would not do it during a "live" skydive...It is for training. Ari's comment about the head weight...believe it or not, its also true. Many times when a person does a strong head switch you can see the center point of the turn move. Also, many times when you do a head switch you try to rush the turn back in...And that makes your head the piviot point yet again moving the center of the turn. So there are three reasons... I think its more 1 and 3.... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I suck at: Math...I took a bunch of apptitude test..And it said I should be an engineer...But it also said I am just average at math....I think I suck at it. Running...God I hate it, and an injury I got in the Army makes it so I swore I would never run again unless the guy had a big knife. (If he has a small knife I'll stay and fight...If its a gun why bother running?...I'd just die tired) Playing Guitar...I went out and bought like a 400.00 accoustic one, and took lessons for mths....I can play Mary had a Little Lamb, but thats about it. Spelling...Well if you have read anything I wrote you already know this. Freefly... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

C150 C172 C182 C185 C205 C208 Twin Bo Beech 18 Queen Air King Air B90 (Mullins and others) King Air 200 Single Otter Twin Otter Porter SkyVan Casa Fokker F-27 C-130 C-141 C5 C17 Ch-47 Chinok Huey UH-60 Black Hawk DC3 Some crop duster thingy. There are more...But I can't recall them. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep...But its better than not thinking at all You and I have talked before....Wanna guess my answer? - - - - - - - - If you don't need it, and its even remotely possible it could do bad things...don't take it. I fail to see what good a watch will do for you in the plane or in freefall. On the ground I can understand, but not once your kit is on. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Progression of the sport. Not many people jump F-111 7 cells anymore either. However it is a good deployment method...Its the one your reserve uses. You have several great answers to this already. They are not as controlable as a square. They land harder. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Everyone jumps them...Check your reserve. Its not obsolete...I jumped them in the military, and they still use them today. There are some arguments FOR a round. They are almost idiot proof. In a two out the are much safer. But your statment that most places use them due to cost issues is bang on. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Had no debt..got married....Then divorced...Shazam I had debt. I am now out of debt and saving like a mad man. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

We knew the Germains blamed the Jews for their problems...We knew Hitler hated them. We knew of the concentration camps, the Red Cross had been to several of them including Auschwitz-Birkenau. Yes we didn't know of the mass exterminations...Other than stories...And the Red Cross could not find any information to prove it. But anyway: 1. The true nature of the holocaust was in the hatred and in a group of people using another as a scapegoat for social problems... The killings were a SYMPTOM, not the disease. 2. It has no real relevance to this thread other than to refute the first posters claim of us bombing them...Yes, we bombed them...The bombed us...We bombed them its called war. And we did know that they were treating Jews poorly...We KNEW that they were being treated like cattle, we knew thousands of people were disappearing...We were already at war with them....what else were we gonna do? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The LEVEL was not known. However, the German Workers' Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or NSDAP...NAZI for short) Pamplets included such gems as the 25 points of the party...(I'll only include the ones that apply here): From a German Workers Party. October 16, 1919. The money was used to buy more advertising and print leaflets. The German Workers' Party now featured Hitler as the main attraction at its meetings. In his speeches Hitler railed against the Treaty of Versailles and delivered anti-Semitic tirades, blaming the Jews for Germany's problems. Attendance slowly increased, numbering in the hundreds. From the OSS psychology report on Hitler: So while we might not have know the LEVEL..We knew of the hatred. The Germans didn't hide it. So, we knew Nature, not EXTENT. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And the Germains killed hundreds of thousands of Jews. The difference was we were at war and the Germains were killing Jews like cattle. Equiping a new Army and government after an evil government was dismantled is not the same thing as giving guns back to the NAZI's. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

just so you know: •I attacked and took over 2 countries. Took over? I don't see the them paying taxes. Lat I heard Afganistan still has a government, and Iraq was building one. •I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the US Treasury. Uh ya think the largest terror attack in HISTORY has something to do with that? •I shattered the record for the biggest annual deficit in history (not easy!). Again I think a two front war on terror has a large part to play here. •I set an economic record for the most personal bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period. You think a depression brought on by the largest attack on US soil had anything to do with it..An attack that was planned during Clintons term I might add •I set all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the stock market. OH the president can control the stock market huh? •In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history (tough to beat my dad's, but I did). I don't know about this, so I will not speak. •After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided over the worst security failure in US history. That was planned under Clinton..And I guess you think that when the President is "Off" he just does not answer Email or get security briefs? Get real. •In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their jobs. Again you think OBL had something to do wth that? You have a problem with OBL...Talk to Clinton. •I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any other president in US history. Well, due to the 9/11 attacks, the economy taking a major down turn and the record number of people that were hurt by it...Well he had to do something....And last I checks the President can't just decide to cut something...We have this thing called a system of checks and balances...You see we have THREE branches of govenment...Executive (President), Legislative (House and Senate) and Judicial (Supreme Court)...One branch can't "Just do" something...Get a high school social studies book and give it a read. •I set the all-time record for most real estate foreclosures in a 12-month period. Again..9/11 attacks planned under Clinton resulted in a really bad economy...Oh, wait thats right you think the President can just "will" the stock market right? While you are getting that High School social studies book...Get economics for dummies. •I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president, since the advent of TV. Thats a BAD thing? •I cut health care benefits for war veterans. Mine have been fine... •I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind. OK so if people in other countries don't like him then he MUST be bad right? •I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in US history. I'd say Clintons cock getting sucked and him lying about it was pretty criminal and he tried to keep it a secret...Then there is the whole "White Water" cloak and dagger shit. •Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (The poorest multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, had a Chevron oil tanker named after her for a while.) Cool so we hired smart people that have a proven track record for making good choices in positions to make important choices....I guess you would like your local WalMart security guard as the Sec of Defense? •I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously struggle against bankruptcy. See 9/11 and the largest terror attack in history, and the largest attack on US soil...Ya think that could have something to do with it...And remember...The attack was planned, and the pilots let into the US and trained under your pal Clinton. •I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market in any country in the history of the world. He presided???Was he on the board of directors? •I am the first president in US history to order a US attack AND military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will of the United Nations and the vast majority of the international community. Uh the UN voted to use force...Then they pussed out. •I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States, called the "Bureau of Homeland Security Well Clintons plan of doing nothing didn't work well did it? •I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history. Really???? Got any proof of this? •I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant. I withdrew from the World Court of Law. The UN rendered themselves irrelevant by not acting on the threats they made...Proving they were worthless. •I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors access during the 2002 US elections. That was the most watched election in history...And recount after recount Bush won. •I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations. So he is good at buisness. The Dems are the world record holder of donations from people on welfare....Thanks, but I'll go with the companies that do something for the economy rather than a welfare family that is just a drain on it. •I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history. So in one hand you think he does not listen, then you slam him for tying to???? •I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government. Uh thats total bullshit. •I took the world's sympathy for the US after 9/11, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history). Uh, the US was the most resented county in the world before 9/11...And we have been for several decades. •I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability. So, the reigion that we saved from Hitler loved us when we lost our lives to save them, but hates us now for saving ourselves (Without any help from them I might add) •I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts. And we kept CLinton in office after he was show to have lied under oath...Enough to get him disbarred, but not enough to fire him? •I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history. Again Bullshit, utter bullshit RECORDS AND REFERENCES: • I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available). Kerry admitted to commiting war crimes. And Bush's DD record is nothing compared to Ted Kennedys. •I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during time of war. Have any proof of that? Kerry and his winter soldier testamony was use to try our POW's, sentance them to death and have them executed. •I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use. At least when he did do drugs he did them correctly (how did we ever elect a guy that could not even smoke a joint right?) •All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. Just like White Water documents? GEORGE W. BUSH The White House, Washington, DC "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This I have a problem with. This not so much really. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh you are killing me. The best answer I think I can give is this. What would she want? I was talking to Joe Trinko (A man that has done a lot and his opinion I trust.) He told me that with his World Meet golds...The only place someone will buy him a beer is at the DZ...And even then not everyone knows who he is, or cares. But if you want it bad enough, its worth it. Now, I know several REALLY good skydivers that are shit poor. And they have nothing set aside for retirement. I know one several time world champ that drives a taxi. I would sugest she read the profiles on the NSL page. Jerome David:BAC scientifique + BA: Law + Sports’ Professor Alan Metni: BA History & B.A. in Government - University of Texas at Austin; MPAff, Masters in Public Affairs - L.B.J. School of Public Affairs J.D., Law Degree - University of Texas at Austin Gary Smith: Bachelor’s degree in commerce, law degree Lise Aune: Business Administration Dan Brodsky-Chenfeld: Ohio State University, graduated with a major in aviation, minor in theater Hell, I'd go to law school. Given the choice of the time and money I have spent in skydiving....If I could I would trade it for a serious college degree. I am now back in school...doing what I should have done 10 years ago. Not to say I have wasted my time. I have enjoyed the ride, but in the end my buddies that went to collage instead of jumping like hell...They are now making more, and can do more than me. Just my opinion....I by no means no more about life than anyone else. and hell...you asked "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You are taking advice from a fiction writter? And I don't and its clear you never read the other threads I asked you to read...Others don't as well. Until you read the other threads there is no point in this exchange. Not scare...Make aware. And like I said read the other threads..Many people think this sport IS safe. Ah the 45 degree rule comes to my mind. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, I am asking a simple question...One of Three. The purpose of these questions is to wake up the newer jumpers who have not yet had to see or experience the loss that they WILL experience in this sport. Fact is you jump long enough you WILL see or know a friend that bounces. A large number of newer jumpers think this is a safe sport....Safer than driving. Its not. I don't expect one of my buddies outside of skydiving to die every other year. In skydiving I DO expect it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats just a red herring comment designed to provoke a reaction. Now that comment shows cognitive thinking...And it's dead on. Just like you think driving is safer than skydiving... A large number of people skydive and never have thought about the risks. There is a large portion of new jumpers in the skydiving population that thinks skydiving is safe. Its not. By the very nature of the sport it is not safe...I'm not getting into this here...Please search, read, and if you choose to comment on it do it in that thread. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Good. This sport is not safe....Do a search on here and read up on these debates. Fact is....Most people on here are going to know someone that died skydiving....I can't say that for driving to the DZ. No they would not....Do a search again. I have lost many more friends to skydiving than ALL other forms of death. Now as I get older illness I am sure will take more and more. But like I sais skydiving is not safe, and the thought that it is is the very reason I post these...New people, and people that have never jumped need to understand that people die in this sport.... It was said best by Kevin here: I have a lot more friends that drive..But I have more dead skydivers in my life than dead drivers. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think this post says it best http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1058718#1058718 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A carry on from this thread. We will define "friend" as a person you have off DZ contact with. Someone you had dinner with , called, emailed...ect. Not just a person you "know", or "know of". My last post (Have you seen) was about 45/55. Now I think that it is not 100% and I am sure some said yes enev though they were no there, and I know of cases where people have lied to appear more "experienced"...But the 50/50 was surprizing to even me....Its not scientific but I have my reasons for asking these questions. I am betting that this one will be higher than 70%....And my next close to 85% For me yes. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well you may not bring it up, but your fellow Kerry huggers do. And I do find that funny. I have said several times that both served and as far as I am concerned their service records are in due order. Kerry did serve in Nam, and is a war hero...(I think he is slightly opportunistic, but I don't blame him) Bush did serve in the NG...(I think that also was opportunistic...Again I don't blame him.) I would probably do close to the same given the same choices. I do have issue with Clinton dogging the draft (But he still got elected which I will never understand. But thats a seperate issue.) My issue with Kerry has always been his "Winter Soldier" testimony wher he admits to both seeing and commiting "War Crimes" (His words, not mine). And him using whatever he could to gain political power. Yes, Bush had his issues as well....DUI, Drugs...ect. I know plenty of Alcoholics that have cleaned up...I don't hold them having issues in the past against them... However Kerry is still playing the "whatever side I need to get power" game. He has not changed. Yes, we have WMD's and yes, we have used them....We used them against an enemy that had attacked us, and we had been at war with (Formal declaration of War) for several years....By using the two atomic weapons we saved about half a million lives vs. a land invasion of Japan. Thats a FAR cry from using them on your own folks to "see what happens". If the UN said we had to get rid of them, and we told them to fuck off...Then yes they would be justified. Same thing with Iraq. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hindsite? I can be 100% accurate if I predict last years results... Now knowing the future, or even the present is much harder. Besides I don't need a better reason fot he US to step up to cover the UN's paper tiger threats. SH was an evil man, he tourtured his own people.... He ignored the UN and never provided the proof the UN asked him for. I find it funny that people are all over Bush to prove he was in the NG, but you are willing to accept the fact that a country can lose track of a stock pile of weapons. He clearly was planning on keeping his ability to produce Chemical weapons, and a method of launching them. He had WMD's at one time...And used them against his own people. He claimed to have them. He supported terrorists... He hated the US... So all I have to do is ask this these questions... Do I think the SH would have attacked the US if he thought he could get away with it?....I say yes. If he could would he support terror attacks against the US just like he supports Palistine?....I say again yes. Did he had the intent to produce WMD's?....Yes Did he account for his stock piles of WMD's like the UN resolution told him to?...No. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ah a man of the people..... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Fuck. I stopped drinking 6 mths ago....Tonight I toasted Paul.... Fuck. I can't believe it. One memory keeps popping into my head. My last jump to get my Tandem rating..Paul was my passenger. As we moved to the door he turned his head to me and said "Game on Man!".....I will never forget that moment, I will never forget him. My heart goes out to Juile and Alexa. Bill and Nicole I'm here if you need me.... Blue Skies...... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334