Ron

If thats what you want to take from this....Please, do sell your gear. What I would like people to take from this is the real message. And that message is that if you consider an event (newbie coaching, 100ways, driving drunk, running red lights, running high class rapids...ect) to be to dangerous without (AAD's, Airbags, Helmets)....Then it should be to dangerous to do even with the added equipment since the chance of an accident is not lessend by these saftey devices, only the surviability of the acts. And since true saftey is avoiding accidents it makes more sense to avoid them, than to just do them with the added saftey stuff. So if you consider jumping on a 10 way speed jump to dangerous without an AAD, then maybe you should not do them even with one. But please, do sell your gear if you want. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Again you miss the point. What we are saying is, "If you think driving drunk is stupid, don't do it even if you have Airbags." What you are saying is, "I would only drive drunk with Airbags." You WILL be safer driving drunk with airbags....But the safest thing is not to drive drunk, not to do it only if you have airbags. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Really easily. Uh, no. you failing to see the error in your thinking is. You still miss the point. See you still miss the point. If you think that coaching a newbie is suicidal without a CYPRES, then you are stupid to do it with one. The risk of an accident is the same...you just feel its ok to do anything if you have a cYPRES... Here is where the Drunk driving comes in. Most think driving drunk is stupid right? But if you are gonna do it, the safest thing would be to drive drunk in a car with seatbelts and airbags. Having seatbelts and airbags does not make driving drunk any smarter The risk of an accident is the same.....Just like having an AAD does not make coaching a newbie any smarter. If you are willing to do a jump with an AAD that you consider stuipd without, thats like saying you are willing to drive drunk since the Airbags make you safe. And again you miss the point...I never said that. I said "If that skydive is to dangerous for you without a CYPRES...then it should be to dangerous for you WITH ONE." No where have I ever said jack shit about you or me.....The questions are for you or me, but not to compare the two... And thats why you have no clue about what I am talking about. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Uh, yes it is. If I will not do a 100way without an AAD. But will do it with one. Then the only thing that is different is the AAD. And therefore it IS proof that I am only doing the 100 due to having an AAD. Now if I PREFER to have an AAD, but would do the jump anyway then you would be correct. But if I make the AAD mandatory it is infact an indication that I am only going on that jump becasue of the AAD. If he would not do 10 way with out the AAD, but will do it with one...It is a FACT that it is the AAD that makes the 10way possible for him. Exactly....So an AAD will not reduce the chances of ana accident, only it *might* increase the chances that you will survive. The safest thing to do is to avoid the Accident in the first place. No, if I thought my main was malfunction prone, I would not jump it. I know several others that have zero mals with the same main. If I thought my packing was sub-par I would work on it....Which BTW I DO think my packing needs work, and have been working on it....Ironicly, this lead to my last mal. I also don't do skydives that I think the risk of collision is so high that I feel the need for an AAD. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, but my take has always been Don't do a jump with an AAD that you would not do wthout an AAD. Not do the jump without the AAD. Compare it to driving drunk. Most think driving drunk is a bad idea...However if you are going to drive drunk you should do so ina car with seatbelts and an Airbag to increase your chances of survival. The BEST thing is to avoid driving while drunk, not making sure you have airbags. The best thing is to avoid dangerous skydives....Not do them just because you have an AAD. I fail to see how you can't crasp the logic in not using the AAD to as a way to allow yourself to do reckless things. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So it is perfectly fine to go on any skydive you want as long as you have a CYPRES? Do you also fly in IMC just cause you can? Do you run red lights, or drive drunk since you have an Airbag? Would it not be SAFER to just avoid dangerous situations? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Might want to edit that "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Better than taking your "Anything is OK as long as you have a CYPRES" stance. John, what do you think of this statement: Here is a jumper taht due to having a CYPRES will do jumps that they would not without it. Therefore this jumper is doing more dangerous things...Things they think is too dangerous without an AAD since they have one. How is that safe? Please, tell me what you think about this quote. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1622462#1622462 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You get used to it, or you quit. The first time I got the call, my legs turned to jelly and I felt like someone dropped an elephant on my chest. Now, the first response is to say damn, and take a second and stop and think about them. I then move on with my life, like they would have if the roles were reversed. It gets easier as it happens more...Or you quit. I had a team mate bounce. I took it kinda hard since our last conversation didn't go the way I would have liked. One member finished the year and quit. I just sold his gear last mth. Still even when you quit unless you go away the deaths still sting when you hear of them. If you stay in this sport, expect to bury lots more friends....Unless its you that they bury. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I saw it this weekend. I tried to watchit form both the perspective as a person who knew the books...And as someone who didn't. Either way, I was dissapointed. Some of the best stuff was the inner dialog of the characters...Stuff such as the construction lead having flashbacks of his grandfather Gingus Khan, while living a mundane life. When I saw the construction lead and he looked kinda like he could have been related to GK....I had high hopes, but the movie just went right by that. My friend who I saw the movie with had never read the books, so I used her as a gauge to see if it was funny to someone that had not read the books....No laughter. If you loved the books, the movie kinda ruins them. If you didn't read the books, the movie IMO does not stand on its own. If I knew then what I know now about the movie...I would not have seen it. Of course if I knew then what I know now, I would NOT have seen the movie. Except that means I would not have known not to not go see the movie, so I would have gone and seen it. So I would have to go see the movie to know that I would not have wanted to see the movie...Thus making the whole exercise kinda pointless and proving that while time travel, while it might be possible...It is almost always a bad idea. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ive done. Suncoast Parkway (I have done 40 miles on it...It goes much farther) Flatwoods (7mile loop) Withilachoci (SP/) (I have done 40 miles, again it keeps going) "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Randy two ring....Wanna share with the class why *I* find this from you funny as hell? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And going on a skydive with a higher than normal collision risk just because you have an AAD is also a sign of poor judgement. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ah, but people do say that.... And the people who can't understand that many who claim to not be device dependant are infact. And their puppets go on about it also, never understanding the problem. I have been to plenty of funerals. I find it funny that you guys seem to be ignoring the simple fact that it IS safer to avoid jumps where you might need an AAD. Instead we have some that admitting that, they use a play on words to avoid answering that question for themselves. All the time trying to justify their position of allowing themselves, and encouraging others, to do more dangerous stuff since they have an AAD. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And the skydiver that avoids dangerous situations is safer than the one that does them since he has "Gas in the tank (an AAD)" "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, you are being obtuse. An AAD does not make a skydiver safer. It will prevent a death MAYBE. But the chance of an accident is the same. And if you use an AAD to go on dumber jumps....The chances will increase. That is the opposite of safety. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You need to reread that. Two guys both with IFR tickets...One will fly single engine IFR, one will not. Who is safer? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A skydiver going on a high risk dive with an AAD shows poor judgement. Even if they have ann AAD they should avoid high risk dives. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ok, I don't have an AFF right now. AAD dependence CAN be a bad thing. It does not HAVE to be a bad thing. If you use an AAD and do things with it that are more dangerous than you would without one...You are allowing an AAD to increase your risk. It is exactly like driving more reckless, or in worse conditions if you have airbags in your car. You are not LESS *likely* to have an accident if you allow yourself to drive recklessly, or in poor conditions cause you have airbags...In fact you are MORE likely to have an accident. Yes, you are also more likely to *survive* the accident. But, if by using the fact you have airbags you go out and driving in more dangerous conditions or more dangerous ways than if you did not have them, you are in fact being more dangerous,and INCREASING your risk. Not only to you, but others on the road. Same with an AAD. If you allow yourself to make riskier jumps with an AAD that you would never consider without one...You are dependent on the AAD to keep you safe. And thats bad since the AAD will not reduce your chances of an accident at all. So dependence is not necessarily bad....Depending on it so you can do more dangerous stuff IS bad. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, but he will also admit it. Nothing. He will in no way perform better. There is nothing he can do...Its not about students, its not about skills. It is about the simple fact that people will do more dangerous stuff with an AAD than without. It is a mindset. Why do a dangerous jump just becasue you think and AAD will save you? Do you admit that an AAD will not reduce the chances of an Accident? It will not prevent an accident, it will not prevent you from being knocked out, it will not prevent you from being paralized, it will not prevent you from breaking your arm. More on knocked out Really read this one...Its pretty good. The "Safe" skydivers were the ones that refused to go on that load. None of these were prevented by a CYPRES. The deaths were prevented....But the ACCIDENT still happend. Safe jumpers use their brains to prevent the accident, then ADD the AAD incase all hell breaks loose. Not go on dangerous dives since they have an AAD. I really don't know how to say it better. Choose your dives as if you have no AAD, then ADD one to be safe, don't use the AAD as a pass to do more dangerous stuff. I have to go...I have AFF to do. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If you will allow yourself to be a dumbass because you have an AAD...then the AAD is the issue. If you felt the AAD will make you safe...you are stupid. An AAD will NOT reduce the chances of something going wrong. OK, lets use Aviation. Who is safer, the guy that will fly single engine IFR, or the guy that will not? Having an IFR ticket will not make an engine out less likley. Having an AAD will not reduce the risk of an Accident. I have friends with 23,000 hours that will not fly single engine IFR if they can avoid it. They are safer than a guy with an IFR ticket that will. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, I think you have. Correct. You yourself said I never told them to quit....So where did you get that? I said that if you MUST have an AAD, then you should really think about if that jump should be done at all. Adding an AAD does not reduce the chance of an accident. It MAY (hell, most likley will) reduce the chance of you dying...But It WILL NOT do anything to reduce the risk...Using your brain to say "No" to a questionable jump WILL. OK. He should really think about if he is willing to take the added risk of doing an AFF jump. Just because he added an AAD does not make the risk of an accident any less. Do you admit that adding an AAD does NOT reduce the chance of an accident? *Suited*? No. But, adding an AAD does not reduce the chances that something could go wrong any more than adding airbags makes you a better driver. If I don't feel the jump is safe without an AAD, it is not safe with one. Shit still can happen even if you had 5 AAD's on your rig. If he would do the jump only if his AAD works he is clearly dependant on it. And he should rethink the jump. An AAD is NOT magical, and even if it works it may still not save you. If I feel the jump is too dangerous to do...I don't do the jump with or without an AAD. Who is safer: The guy who goes ahead and does a jump he is unsure of because he has an AAD, or he guy that does not jump if he feels unsafe with the conditions? Again find one place where I said I was better. I think the guy that needs an AAD to do a jump should rethink doing that jump at all. He is putting a great deal of trust into a device that will not reduce the risk of something bad happening. An AAD does not reduce the chance of an accident. Yep...but I dont think you will ever really understand it. Do you think an AAD makes a dangerous skydive safer? It does not. It *might* make it survivable, but it does not make it safer. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But what if you only would do the jump if you had an AAD? Then the AAD is the center of the issue. If you would not do the jump without it due to the risk of the jump....Then why do it with one? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then you would not be dependant and this would not effect you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334