Ron

That would be impossible since I have a penis. But having been piece partners with both male and female, I can say I see no difference when we are in the air. Have you jumped on an all male team? Have you been a male with a female and a male piece partner? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But a 95 pound guy would have the same issues. It's not about sex, its size. A 250 brute would not skydive very well either no matter male or female. And if you had a team of 95 pounders strength would not matter since the person you would have to move would be the same size/weight. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This year is an "off" year. They could go Advanced and still go Open next year. Now I tend to think they will go Open myself...But they are the top team "qualified" to go advanced. So you have to consider that. Identity Crisis, MD, Inferno. IC had Robbie Spencer. MD is a very good team, but I think they would have been edged out. Of course it would really depend on the day. Inferno was a good team (Thanks for the medal guys!!!). But both MD and IC were 15.5's. Brother, I have not seen or heard from you almost all year. I have not seen one set of scores, not heard of any training....Heck last time we spoke you had just formed a group. Give me some info, and I'll see what I can do BTW who is Irwins tripple PC team? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Being male, I have flown with male and female partners. I can't tell the difference between them in the blocks if they are doing the moves correctly. Nope, you think its only about strength, and I think its about skill. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This whole thing boils down to this. I think women are equals in skydiving, and you do not. My first real team had a woman on it (Frost 98). Sally Hathaway. She was picked over several men. She was picked because she could do the job. Gender had nothing to do with her selection. Eliana was picked for her abilities, not for being a woman. I have seen women skydive faster and better than males. Both US teams have women on them. 4 National teams have women on them. That tells me that a bunch of people don't think that women are weaker. Ever notice that most MEN doing top 4way are in better shape than most normal men? There are also a TON fewer female skydivers. So it would figure that there were be less women at the top. The fact that both US teams have women, and 4 National teams have women tell me that they are there. Right, but it may never happen since so few women make it to the top level due to the lower number of females that try. There are less female AFF instructors...Is that due to women being "weaker" as well? So, why are 4 National teams jumping with women? I would think that if they thought they could do better, that they would try since they all want to win. It makes zero sense to claim that they are hobbling themselves by having a woman on the team. I know a little about 4way and I have done 15+ over 10 rounds in three different slots (IC, Tail, Point). I would not say my thoughts are "naive" in reference to the needs of each slot. Have you been told by them that they were put there since they were weaker? As a man I find your views on women to be out dated and insulting. Notice that in Skydiving women ARE at the top. Not like any of the sports you mentioned. If women were on the top teams, or placing at the top of the sport, then the proof would be they would not need separate classes. I think that anyone that works hard can make it. I don't hold gender against them like you seem to do. What other things are women less able to do? Office work? As with that I see no need to discuss this anymore. Like I said, it boils down to I think women are equal, and you think they are not. I think the fact they are at the top shows that. You think that unless there are 4 women together standing at the top spot it means nothing. And yes, I do love Natasha...I mean who the hell would not? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

On average, men have more muscle. I only dispute that it requires muscle. I am stronger than Natasha, but she can skydive circles around me. Like I said, the air does not care what is between your legs, only HOW you push the air. To say that strength is a limiting factor is wrong. Eliana, Natasha et al...Are proof of that. I know plenty of guys that are stronger, but those guys would get smoked by these women. Really? Lets look at EXACTLY what you did say. "I often hear people who haven't hit even a 17+ in their own teams complaining that 'women are just as capable as men'..." It kinda looks like it is EXACTLY what you said. You think its strength...And you would be wrong. The women doing 20's now are not Hercules. Even in your own argument right there you contradict yourself. You say they are not as strong and you need strength...then you say you think an all woman team can do a 20+. Do women suddenly get stronger? Never claimed women are as strong as men. I claimed that it should not matter and I have named women that prove that. The power comes from defecting air, not muscle. Sure, but you claim that its about muscle, and there are women that are weaker and can skydive circles around stronger men...so that takes some air out of your theory. Only one team will win. I think that the male team would have the edge since quite simply they have more CHANCES of having top level skydivers since there are more male skydivers than female. My proof is the very high number of women that ARE at the top. It is logical to assume that a smaller pool of available people will bring a smaller pool of top level jumpers. I disagree that point requires less strength. Number one, they don't stay point all the time. A slot switch will make them OC. And several blocks are harder on Point than on some other slots. 1,6,8,16,19. Some are equal. 11,12,18,21 are perfectly equal. Yep, the fastest draw I have ever seen. Fire did over a 23, Italy did over a 23..Almost a 24...Oh wait, both those teams have females as well huh? Before that draw only one team ever did +23 over 10 rounds. Then at this comp two teams do and one almost does a 24? It is the fastest draw I have ever seen, and the high scores of so many teams prove it. 5 teams had their best meet ever (In this meet two teams broke the world record for 10 rounds...TWO in one meet! Danes did a new national record, Norway new record, Tewaiz tied a record...(I had the old one 2003 15.7) But the fact that it was fast does not change the fact that the top three teams had a women on them....The top three. If you put any male teams against that all male line up, I would bet against them. You are not proving a thing. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They changed the rules in 99'. So anything before that has a different draw. 99' Frost 13.6 00' Teiwaz 13.2 01' Identity Crisis 15.5 (with Robbie Spencer Bronze with Equinimity in 97 at the World Meet) 02' Nemisis 13.7 (with a jump off against the Angry Bees) 03' Inferno 14.7 04' Adrenaline 13.2 05' Mass Defiance 15.4 (So far the highest scoring non PC Advanced team) So the scores seem to be around the 14-14.5 mark. Right now the top Advanced team looks to be Elsinore Select with Xkeys O2 project right there. Both are about mid 13's. Rumor is that Irwin has another project going...Can't ever count him out. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This whole argument falls dead when you mention that there are women on most of the top teams. Because the top teams pick the *best* they can, and if they thought that a women would be less capable, they would not have them. Unless you want to claim that they are only doing so well since they are being helped by men? I don't see it that way at all. I think women are equal to men in this sport. The air does not care who is pushing it, only how. And Eliana, Natasha, Dawn English ect are proof of that. Goes against your argument here as well : "That is not to say that women are, as individuals, less talented than men, simply that, due to sheer numbers of female skydivers in relation to men, there are fewer..... Well, it's certainly not MY mindset, which is exactly WHY I doubt the need for 'women only' records. Women are as 'capable' as men and should not need to be given 'special' status. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1077632#1077632" To say that women are equal to men is "complaining"???? WOW. As for a woman who does a 20 being the exception...So are the men who do a 20. The problem is one you mentioned above....Lack of a bunch of women trying to be the best. You fiqure that 80% (Low guess) of the sport is male and only 20 % female. And then look at the number of males that can do a 20 in 4way and it is lets say its 50 in the world. That would only mean that 10 women in the world could do the same if they had the same success rate. The problem is raw numbers, not weakness based on sex. It is only because the smaller number of females that jump leads to the smaller number of female RW types, that leads to the smaller number of serious 4way types that there are not more top level females....Its not about what is between their legs. If you took Eliana (US team), Natahsa (US team), Arianna (Italy), Ditta (Norway) ect and put them on the same team...They would kick ass. Not just female ass, but male ass as well. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They have this wonderful thing called *not reading*. Maybe you could try that? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The team with the most points wins....Sheesh, I would think you would know that Show up a day early, get all your paperwork done and make 1-2 warm up jumps. Nothing hard, just a few feel good dives to get used to the plane/altitude/DZ/new gloves and face shield. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Odyssey is not going. With Hayabusa it's the tidying it up a bit part. Hayabusa did a 47 (J-O-A-H-F) really. But so did Fire (F-M-P-O-E). And both had video issues. No doubt they will do well, but I tend to place a bit more faith in the people who have been there once before (Fire with Garry) or with the guy that has been at every World Meet since god did a SL (PD with Pete). Of course thats just my opinion... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, but you said, "I think 500 because that is when you can become a tandem instructor, then you are responsible for another persons life on each jump". Its not like they hand you a Tandem student when you reach 500 jumps. You have to have more than just 500 jumps (3 years exp and a rating) and that makes things different IMO. And anyone with a rating is in a different class IMO. Not to be a ratings snob, but I think if you teach it, you tend to be a little more focused than a fun jumper. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You are an Airspeed fan?!?!?!? I would have never guessed "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well OK, but my answer was it depends on type of jumps. I don't think a guy with 1,000 hop n pops is more experinced at RW than a guy with 200 jumps with Airspeed. If you are looking for an about number, I said 1,000 before. But, that can be less if the person has an AFF or riggers ticket, or maybe a Gold at nationals. But those things only apply to those areas. Just like my 3800 jumps does not make me better than you with a camera. And if a guy asked me advice about a camera setup, I would send them to you if you were around...Hell, if I was going to get a new helmet I would go to you if you were around....(OK, I'd got to Tony H, but I hope you understand my point) Just a fun jumper? 1,000 if thats all they have is jump numbers. One special skill (instructional rating, PRO, Video, 4way) shortens that a bit. Sure, unless the other guy has not had more than three "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes she is, she is THREE times more experienced when it comes to reserve rides. Now maybe nothing else, but in reserve rides she is much more experienced. Thats just math. And I say it depends on the jumps and the time in sport. You have 700 camera jumps, I have ~100. I bet you are MUCH more experienced than me with a camera no matter that I have 2000+ more jumps than you. Tony Hathaway has 13000 jumps, but I am more experienced than him in 4way. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Great guy. When I got to Bragg he let me live in his house for a year. One of the best people I know. Honest, hard working, and loyal. Razor sharp focus and determined. If you ever get the chance, hang with him. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

She is more experienced in cutaways. Thats a fact. Simple, you have done more, or you have *experienced* more than someone with the same number of jumps and no mals. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If I had to pick, a guy with 1,000 jumps over 10 years would be more experienced than a guy with 1,000 in one year. The one year guy might be able to fly all around the 10 year guy, but the 10 year guys knows not to jump a Nova. A good number of one year hyper jumpers don't understand their gear...ect. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

500 jumps, three years, and a instructor rating is a big difference than just 500 jumps. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Depends on a bunch of things. If a person has say 1500 jumps but just won the open class at the nationals...I'd tend to say she was experienced. But take that same jumper and she has no tandems...She would be inexperienced with tandems. Now if you are talking about regular "fun" jumping. I tend to say...It depends. It depends on the persons skills and attitude. I had a friend that had 800 jumps and did not know how to assemble a three ring. But if I had to come up with a number...Say 1,000. AND 5-6 years. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

1. Wind. If there is no wind I tend to slide it in. If there is 10-15 MPH winds I tend to stand. Higher than that and I tend to slide again since If I get drug due to not collapsing the canopy soon enough or lack of catchers, I'd rather slide than fall. 2. Students condition. If I have a fit person, or a small person I tend to stand since if they are small I can hold them up, or if they are fit they can stand on their own. If they are out of shape I tend to slide to protect them. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not only because I like being around good looking women, but Natasha, Eliana, and Arianna would also push me. I like being pushed by good looking women...I'm sick like that "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

4way : Gonna be tight. Either Fire or Italy in the top spot. The rest is a crap shoot. 8way: US, France, Russia. 4 way Female: France, UK, US. The US team stepped down and Select suddenly found themseves going in their place. Select has had player changes and so far has only posted a 13.3. About the Female class...I still don't like it. My reason is in the scores. US, Italy, Norway all have female players. Add in Airspeed who is not going and the top teams in the WORLD have females on them. Of all of those females, only one has ever won a female world title. Look at the top US teams: Fire. Natasha Airspeed "O". Eliana Airspeed "V". None Fastrax. None The top teams have females. Look at the fastest rising teams in the US, Fury and Gravity. Both have female members. Females are going to be standing on podiums everywhere. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sure they could. But notice they will not let you get "Intoxicated". Tell ya what, call the FSDO in your area. Ask them if a Tandem student is allowed to have a beer before they jump. Then please, post what they tell you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Depends on your definition of "Intoxicated" "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334