Ron

peep this for destruction http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFOZZLRTaYc&search=Raptor "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes. It was placed there in very careful consideration of me maybe forgetting....Lets call it a reserve smiley. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Skydiving is not safe. It can't be. Driving is not safe. It can't be either. Saying you know more people who have died driving is silly. I bet you know more people that drive than you know that jump. And I bet most of those that jump also drive. However, you need to look at the participant rates, amount of use, saftey devices ect, and the environment itself to make any informed choice. Your comparison to working on a ladder is only a very small part. It covers environment and I'd venture that a 30 foot ladder and falling from 10,000 feet are not even close to the same fatality rate. Then look at the equipment. In skydiving you have AAD's, freebags, ect. Those come no where as close to the amount of safety equipment a car comes with. Plus the car itself is designed to crush in the place of hurting the person. The vary nature of both are not safe. But only one starts with certain death on EVERY experience. (Save me the AAD will save me BS, the same could be said for Airbags or seatbelts). The very nature of the extreme environment that skydivers play in means that the sport can not be considered "safe". The USPA #s show about 34000 people in the sport in the US. The average number of fatalities ar 30 per year. So rough math shows around one death per 1100 people. Looking at that "how stuff works" piece. It say 17 jumps is all that it would take to equal the chance of death in skydiving as it is driving. I don't know about you but I have 3800 jumps so I have the same "risk" ,according to that article, as someone who has driven for 223 YEARS. And I bet most skydivers make more that 17 jumps per year. Also, it compares 17 jumps to 10,000 miles driven. So how many TIMES did that person have to drive to get 10,000 miles? I bet more than 17 trips. So they want to compare ONE YEARS worth of driving to one jump? Nonsense really. Depends on the context. But for the most part in a general sense nothing about skydiving could be considered safe. If is a term used to try and make people feel better about what they do. Winsor said it best, you commit suicide each time you jump from a plane and you rely on equipment and training to prevent your death in the last 20 seconds. The same can not be said for driving. The equipment between the two does not even come close to the same level of protection. Training levels are different. If everyone drove like they jump, driving fatalities would drop greatly. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Kinda goes with "nicely dressed" "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Come to Dallas, I'll teach you for free. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Depends on the method and number of students. I have found: Tandem: About 15-20 min Static Line: About 4 hours AFF: About 5-6. US Army, three fun filled weeks in GA. But like I said it depends on how fast the student gets it and the number of students. I have taught one on one AFF classes in 2.5 hours with a smart student. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Bragg rocks. Very smooth air, the smoothest I have flown in. SV Co. had me maxed out at about 70% power. I could not stay down and was actually looking at the fans when I wanted to get big. Either of those two wins IMO, but I have not been to England or AAC. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hell, I have found N Texas to be much nicer in the summer than Florida. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You don't see the difference between an experienced jumper who had a beer...(not that I think that is a good idea either) and a student? Even if it is just a tandem, the liability goes through the roof incase of an accident. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You may have to let go of the activity, but not the people. Then you have everything. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sure as soon as you find a way for me to get paid for all those hours of school I did. What you paid to get into the seat is your business, and it is the cost of doing what you choose to do. Just like the lawyer, or doctor paid to be able to practice medicine. You choose your career field. If you dont like it, maybe you should change, or maybe you should have choosen better? Do you deny that pilots use DZ's as a way to get hours to move up? Just because you didn't that does not make it true. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sure ya did...Try writting better. In your rant "And to all you jumpers who think the pay gap between pilots and instructors is ok with you, enjoy a lifetime of jumping with lowtime pilots...afterall, its what you pay for. " What about low pay for instructors that have to deal with a serious situation on every jump? Somehow only the pilots job is dangerous or important? How about the Tandem Guy who's very life is at risk on every jump? You want to leave fine...Thats how it works. You minimize everything but your own issues. Ignoring the whole scope of the the larger picture. I notice you didn't mention how many hours you had when you got the job and how many you are leaving with. It seems to be OK when you are coming in, but then its not fair once you have been there a while...Human nature and even the Skydiving Instuctors say the SAME thing. You went off on skydivers...OK it was a rant. But I found it funny that the low time pilots were OK when you were a low time pilot. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not a whole lot available for the basics. Skydive U has one. http://www.skydiveu.com/product.jsp?productid=5 Never seen it, but Skydive U's stuff is normally pretty good. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And since the FAA considers flight time as compensation, how many hours did you get while flying jumpers? How many did you have when you got the job? And that is how it has been for 30+ years. People with the minimum qualifications are willing to take 100-150 dollars a day to get their hands on a Twin Turbo prop. They fly for a few years and when they get enough time they leave. And then a new guy takes their slot, gets the hours and leaves. BTW I know a few jump pilots that make quite a bit more than your 100-150 a day. Our pilots still get hired on starting for 60-70 thousand. We hire more every year. In fact there is a posting in this weeks job board. Pay starts at 71,688. No one said your job was easy. I am a pilot as well, so I know what you do, and as a jumper the people you do it for. But bitching about they way the system works does not change the nature of the system. You are leaving, just like Chris did, and just like others have before him. You will be replaced just like you replaced others. Taking a soundbite like "50 bucks a coached jump" and trying to apply it to the entire industry does not work. The number of people willing to pay 50 bucks a jump for a few very skilled coaches does not mean that all jumpers are willing to pay more. You are doing the right thing, don't like the situation, try to change it, or leave. You like to say that the big jobs in avaiation are gone right? Well skydiving pilot has never been a big job. So, if the big guys are getting smaller and paying less, it would stand to reason that skydiver pilots would also get paid less right? Its a market driven force. I have more people willing to take a job, than I have jobs I can pay less than if I needed more people than there were people. The same thing happend in the computer field. It is nothing personal, if I could the second person to get a raise would be lots of people. The first person who I would fight to get a raise is myself. Just like we did with you? Again you are taking a sound bite and running with it. A very flawed theory. And as much as you wish to undermine the importance of a skydiving instructor vs a pilot. Which do you think is safer? Pilot or skydiver? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK but in one of those threads a guy said a motorcycle was cheaper. Thats choosing one sport over another. I quit flying so I could jump more. I know people who have quit jumping to fly more. Economics and finite resources state that you can't so it all. And when things get more expensive people look for other things to do. But I do know people who have quit due to cost. Just because you don't know anyone does not make it not true. And what would your personal limit be? You said you could understand 50 bucks a jump....What about 40? 30? 25? When I started a lift ticket was 15.00-16.00 to 14 grand. You could jump a Cessna for 6.00-10.00. People come into this sport and then life gets a hold of them. They have a job, family, and a certain amount of "mad money". As costs rise they look for other ways to entertain themselves. You know anyone who bought a smaller car due to gas prices? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What if the cost was the issue? Sally needs braces, you wife wants to go on Vacation, little Timmy is now in Med school? Recreation is the first to go. The economy is not doing great and the simple fact is jumps and jumpers are down. Why else do you think our numbers are dropping? Discretionary income has been reduced and recreation has become more expensive. Here is an example http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1985616#1985616 and another http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=716731#716731 There are more "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Key being " whose priority is skydiving". Thats not everyone. Ask why people quit. The top three will be: 1. Injury 2. Friend got hurt. 3. Money/Time. Now for someone who's priority is jumping, none of that will matter. But for someone who does this for fun and has a house, job, family....Well those are the majority of jumpers, not the air junkies. I bet the ski resorts have seen a reduction as well. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well I use "real job" as higher pay with retirement. Why did you quit flying jumpers? I said they quit coming out. They don't quit, they just don't come out as much. There used to be people who would live at the DZ, and pound out the jumps. I was talking the the DZM this weekend about this and he made that comment. The plane shut down before sunset on a Saturday. I can tell you that I don't go out as much as I used to (and I can organize, do AFF, Tandems...ect, but the work is not there as it used to be), neither does my GF. We found other things to do. Not just because of the cost, but in a part due to it. I think you forget that a good number of jumpers are doing this as RECREATION. And as the economy went south after the tech bubble burst and pay checks have not kept up with inflation and the gas prices the first thing to go is recreation. Yet, you want to increase the cost more to all? Still ignoring that only a few pay that 50 bucks a coached jump. So you discount what the people who quit say? Thats not very good logic...And you STILL ignore my point about only a few willing to pay that 50 bucks. The industry is a hell of a lot more focused on saftey than ever before in my time. There are still giant holes, but the gear is better, instruction is getting better accross the board instead of how it used to be...Ya know a few great instructors, a few OK, and some down right terrible. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I did read your post and I agree to a point. But did you read how I said that only a few jumpers are actually paying the 50 bucks for a coached jump? It is not accross the board and I know plenty of jumpers who think the price of tickets is too high now. Heck my local DZ it is 23.00 a jump and I have seen the people quit coming out. When asked why, price is at the top of most of their lists. So to pay the coaches 50 bucks you have a few folks willing to do that....Fine, market forces at work. If the pilots want more money, they are free to ask, but I am saying that the average consumer will not pay 50 bucks for a coached jump and will not pay 25 bucks a jump ticket either. The higher the tickets, the less jumping we have. Chris, you are a good pilot, and I trust you. But you seem to be ignoring the simple fact that the market will allow a few people to pay 50 bucks to certain coaches, but not allow a price hike accross the board. You know the difference between a good pilot and a bad pilot. But the thing is some are bad pilots with lots of time and will never be a good pilot. And the really good pilots will do what you did and leave to get a real job...No matter how much we wish it a DZ will never be able to pay what a regional can and the guys with the EXP will go for the money. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Was every hour in the plane to get a rating, or where there a few 100.00 hamburgers in there? See the problem? I don't discount what a pilot does to get where they are. But you discount what an AFF guy does. Both have people lives in their hands. But the big issue is market forces. You will not see many people paying 50 bucks extra a jump, only a few will do this. The DZ market is slowing down, the membership of the USPA is dropping, the DZ's are less crowded, less gear is being sold...Ect. Skydiving is not growing, it is shrinking. Adding cost to everyone will only reduce the amount of jumping. Some people will pay 50 bucks for a coached jump...I also knew a guy that paid 10 bucks a pack job. But not everone could afford that either. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And the pilot gets more out of it. It is simple supply economics. To explain let me use my life as an example. I just got a new job. My department (Training) was in a competition with Corporate Safety for a grade level raise. We all wanted the raise, but they were only going to jack the pay of one group. We had training were the average company time of service was 12-15 years. And the employees when they become traininers tended to stay till they die. It is a position where people fight to get. In my case I had a Sr. Manager put in for the job I got. For this guy it would have been a MASSIVE pay cut. Then we had Safety. The average time in department was 4 years. The average employee was almost fresh out of school and left the company for more pay. The company could not keep a safety guy since other companies would hire them. Who do you think got the pay grade? Market forces at work. If there were less pilots willing to fly jumpers then the pay would be better. But thats true in almost everything aviation. Not even close to true. I don't pay 50 bucks a coached jump. In fact I know very few people who do pay 50 bucks a coach jump. So you might have 10 people a weekend willing to pay that. But everyone has to get on a plane. And if the pilot demands real money, and the DZO does not just replace him which would be easy. The the jump price ticket has to go up for everyone, not just those 10 people. I know people who wear torn jumpsuits, jump a worn out rig and do not have an AAD. Those are the average jumper, not the few that are willing to pay 50 bucks for a coached jump. Sure there is: 500 jumps X 20 = 10,000 Rig, jumpsuit, alti = 3,000 Course = 600 Thats 13,600 right there. And what is the AFF I getting for every jump? Liability just as much as the pilot even though it is one person. Plus the pilot is getting hours that the FAA considers compensation. Already covered, you have a few jumpers willing to pay that 50 bucks, not all. Like I said, feel free to look or ask for more money. But do not be surprized when you find you are replaced. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then you would not own a company long, or work for a company. There are several cases of canopies that were not stable. But the companies almost to a one found a reason to claim the canopy was fine. Case in point Nova. Made by the now defuct Glide Path. It was beyond a doubt the best canopy out when it was released. However, once they got out of trim they tended to fold up. First only in bad turbulance, but as they got more out of trim, they got worse. Add in manufactoring tolarances between the different canopies and you had "Good" and "bad" Novas. The company after many deaths finally grounded the line. The last death that I can recall was in Zhills and the locals burned the canopy they were so pissed. Then the company came out with a press release saying the canopy was fine....then they closed the doors and Glide Path went out of business. The next day Flight Concepts opened their doors. Same building, same people, most of the same designs. Just like Firestone denied a tire problem till it was proven, expect canopy makers to do the same. It is one reason that I am on this website. There is plenty of bad information out there. The pilot is fine. There are people out there that will tell you that a light WL is dangerous. Well, there are people out there that will tell you that anything other than a 2.1 loaded Xbraced is dangerous. Some will say you need a high WL to avoid turbulance....Turbulance affects 747's and they have a higher WL than any canopy will. The only problem with a light WL is windy days. And those are only due to forward penatration, not collapse. On windy days, don't jump. It makes everything harder anyway. Of course take anything form this site and talk to an instructor that knows you and you trust. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I just met a guy that came on as a 727 3rd seat and before he could start he was right seat on the MD10. So all pilots are underpaid? Everyone thinks they are underpaid. It might have to do with the airline industry as a whole sucking. You can not get blood from a stone. Its an adjustment. I have friends that retired with more than I make a year. Thats life. I do not bemoan a pilot for making 250,000 a year for working 10 days (And they are still out there, I know a few). I say let the market decide the pay rates. If you can get 200,000 for 10 days work you would. Why bitch about a guy making 50 bucks on a jump? Both earned the right to do that. Right, but 4 years at the DZ as an AAF, Tandem, or coach gets you NOTHING that will help anywhere else. A buddy once told me, "If you think you are underpaid, go try and get a new job for more money. If you do, then you were, if not, then you were not." The thing is with aviation, and you know this better than me, is that if you don't want to fly Otters for the DZ, someone else is willing right behind you. We do not have a shortage of people wanting to fly for a living even if that living sucks. The pilot market sucks, but so does the professional skydiver market. I know plenty of DZ pilots that make more than AFF Instructors. Accross the market skydiving and flying pay terrible. Why do you think it is only pilots? Feel free to ask for more money, but don't be surprized if you get replaced. The industry as a whole is not doing well. I have seen the reduction in fun jumpers. Demanding more money will only rasie jump prices and lower demand for tickets and pilots and then DZ's. I'd love to get 100.00 an AFF jump. But I would starve waiting for the work. As for coaching. I don't charge much at all. I'm a cheap bastard and I used to not even charge. I found unless I charge I don't seem to get the students attention. Even then I still do free days of coaching ect. But I don't complain about the guy that makes more than I do...It might be all the job they have. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And I agree with you. Its just I found the opposite so damn funny I had to say something. People's opinions should be based on their experience in that field. So jump numbers means a bit when talking about canopies, but not jack when it comes to say, car maintenance. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The pilot is also earning hours as compensation. Hours that can earn them a big time job later. An AFF guy, Tandem guy, or coach is not getting that same compensation. This is an old problem in flying. You work for shit pay till you make it. Show me one AFF instructor that eventually could get a 200,000 a year job because he did all those AFFs. And as a coach I am not sure you really know all that a coach does if you think all they do is tell students to stick their legs out, to be honest. Or how much money they spent to be able to charge. The same could be said of pilots, I mean all they do is fly right? ...BTW I have never charged 50 bucks a jump, but let the market decide the rate. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334