Ron

You know that? Don't be stupid. He might really not have a clue, he does only have 12 freaking jumps. Well, you can't really compare the two. You can try, but you will not get much good info. The simple answer is that both are dangerous unless you have experience and the correct equipment. But in truth they really can't be compared well. I would agree that there should be an area for swoopers to swoop. And I also agree that swoopers do not always have the right to swoop even then. I will even raise you that people need more training to be allowed to swoop, and dangerous situations should be grounding offenses. This I disagree with....But if you want to go that route, there is no such thing as a safe skydive either. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Calling people you don't agree with a 'skygod' is not an insult, but logic? It is the the largest, and therefore the most potentialy dangerous. Again logic, not a witch hunt. Did anyone die in Zhills? Kinda proves my point a bit if your guessed numbers are accurate. "As bad" is a relative term. Yes, it is a big boogie. And THAT is my point. Take a bunch of less experienced folks and throw them into a new place, with a new planes....AND a party atmosphere...Well bad things will happen. Boogies are well known as places were the rules get pushed. The WFFC is like the Vegas of the skydiving world. You do things there that you would not do at home...Sure people always act up a bit when away from home...But take so many people where NO ONE is home and it is bound to be more than normal. And new people in a new place with a "no rules" kinda vibe and people are going to push the envelope....Sometimes too far. Raises some interesting questions.... 1. Rate of accidents/injuries at boogies compared to home DZ operations? Most people will admit that a new DZ is more dangerous than you home DZ, and that new things can quickly over tax a less experienced jumper...So I would *guess* that accident/injury rates would be higher at boogies. I would like to see some data. 2. Does the environment change a persons safety attitude? Again, I would guess yes based on stuidies of peer pressure. 3. Can fatigue affect performance? From doing multiple day training, I can say yes. So take a normal weekend jumper and put him into a week long Dropzone when he is living in a hotel or a tent...I can easily see how their performance could be reduced. NONE of these are specific to WFFC, I don't think there is a magic vodoo spell over there. But the Vegas feel, new place and planes, and long days, day after day, could very easily contribute to a higher accident rate. You think I am head hunting the WFFC...Nope, but you are defending it a bit too much IMO when you will not even look at the potential reasons and how they relate to the boogie. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I prefer an AAD that does neither. The CYPRES2 ignored the false events and did nothing and still worked. Since the CYPRES1's are not made anymore compare the new models, not new to old. But given the choice of an AAD that misfires (Call it what you want, an AAD that fires when you do not expect it is a misfire in my book), or an AAD that shuts off....I'd rather the thing shut off than misfire. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OLDER does not mean EXPERIENCED. As are most fatalities anywhere and anytime. Nice insults! Can't argue from logic so you revert to third grade? Maybe you are just kidding yourself on how safe it is? It does not take a "skygod" to know that boogies bring out the worst. New place, new planes, new experiences...All this can easily over load an INEXPERIENCED (notice....Not young) jumper. Add in the parties at night that ALL boogies have...Hell most DZ's. Boogies can be fun, but lets not bury our heads in the sand and ignore the potential dangers that can be brought about by them. I disagree...And even if the RATE is not higher at the WFFC (which I wonder?). But the fact of more people means more dumb people, doing more dumb things. For example people claim that this guy was not the type to swoop objects at his home DZ....But he was swooping objects here....WHY? But hey, keep the insults coming if thats all ya got "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Age has little to do with experience in skydiving. You can be very experienced at 15, think any Mullins kid, or have very little exp and be 60. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Correct, but you didn't say anything close to an opinion on the matter, "I did AFP at Skydive Chicago. Students were not put out on Stilettos. Depending on the year, it was Sabres, Safires or Sabre2s. I made my first Stiletto jump at jump 48, with a WL of approx 1.1 I liked it better than the Sabre, so I bought one. A lightly loaded Stiletto is not particularly radical." No where do you answer the question asked. When asked a direct question, you avoided answering it as well. Again just stating what happend, not your thoughts on students on Stilettos. John, we KNOW SDC did not put students on Stilettos....We also know you as a student were not on a stiletto...However the question you avoided was if you thought they should be, or even could be...And the closest you answered was, "A lightly loaded Stiletto is not particularly radical." So please, lets try a simple question with a yes/no answer. Do you think students should be on Stiletto's? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Certainly seems more common however. And I lived on a major DZ for about 5 years...And I saw more drunk jumpers at the two conventions I went to than all my time at ZHills (a pretty well known party DZ), or all other DZ's combined. 20 days vs 13 years. Yep, but the fact that there are more at the WFFC means a lot. Not really...You have a major boogie with only 10 days of jumping. Tons of low timers and lots of parties. Lots of newer folks doing new things in a new place....That screams bad idea. And the accident rates seem to support that. I would be very interested at comparing the fatality rate at the WFFC vs the general fatality rate over all. Thats because you do not seem to give any credibility to the thought that the WFFC seems to attract or cause dangerous behavior. I think it does, and so do many others. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Kallend is a Professor of Physics, has a pilots license and IIRC, spent a good bit of time in gliders. He is also AVP of the Academy of Model Aeronautics...Like I said not your typical homeboy. But you are right everyone thinks they are special...And most are not. Anyone else find it funny the title of this thread has the canopy misspelled? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You are also not a typical student. Would you let your son do a FJC with a stiletto? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

In all defense, HE might have been current. But the USPA rules say he was not. Of course it is his fault for trying to bend the USPA rules to fit him and getting upset when they didn't. He should have gone to a non-USPA DZ or just gotten a license. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

With all that experience....How hard would it have been to take a test? Really, how hard is it to get a license? But if you had even a "C" license you would have been fine. Again is getting a license all that hard? Hey, I don't like the USPA very much. They have a way of ignoring people all the time. However, they are the only game in town and they do manage to keep the FAA off of our backs a bit. Trust me, you would rather deal with the USPA than the FAA. Really, get a license and then this would/will not be an issue. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Pulling out the door is not dangerous...Just don't PRE-PULL. If you get out the door and pull the reserve your PC will launch, but you will have cleared the plane. Best thing is to talk with your instructors and have them give you a little class on emergency exits...And then do a hop n pop from say 5 grand and start working on them. It is a life saving skill...It is worth the practice it takes to learn it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I did not know until he died. It was his death that got me to look at why his CYPRES didnt fire...It was in the manual, but back then (1993) almost nobody knew that. It is the single biggest factor that almost no one thinks about. Unless your actions have been decided on and TRAINED before hand, there is very little chance anyone will remember them and perform them in a high stress situation. I have gotten out below 2 on my main before...But that was with a Startrac I, not my Stiletto. I would leave at 2 on my main with very little worry. Below that, or depending on WHERE I am I will go out on my reserve. Example. Over an open field at 2 grand-Main. Over trees (Or I don't know)-Reserve But I see folks that will not get out at 2.5-3 grand talk about how they will react in an emergency....Well I have seen people freak out and not be as cool as they think they will be. I urge EVERYONE to do some low exit training. It is a life saving skill. And a good opportunity to practice spotting, another live saving skill often over looked. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Because it takes time to get it off. If I am at my exit altitude I remove my seat belt and stow it out of the way. Once the door is open I am ready to go until about 2-3 grand when I start to relax. Until the door is open I am ready to put my seat belt and helmet back on. You are 100% correct about 1,000 feet being too low. A good number of people have never left at 2 grand, much less 1500 or a 1,000 feet and will freeze in the door. And a single will decend quickly without power...I have a friend who died in a Cessna that lost power. He panicked and cut away insted of pulling the reserve out the door. Smart guy with about 500 jumps at the time....But the panic situation caused him to make a fatal mistake.....BTW, he had an AAD and an RSL and neither saved him. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Once the door is open this is risky. Belts off at a grand. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

One person vs a group. There are arrogant PEOPLE with various number of jumps. I have seen AFF students think they were Gods gift to skydiving, and I know some way over 1,000 jump folks that think the DZ would close down if they didn't show up. But the most arrogant group seems to be less than a grand IMO. Of course it could be that there are more 300-1000 jumps than 1000+ jumpers....And so it just seems like it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ah, you can't explain how you would rather nap than do life saving training....So I am doing BS rephrasings? Yeah and they use logic unlike you...."I won't jump out lower than 3 grand, but I'll have no problem leaving at a grand in an emergency" "Since that day I've done many more diving exits, so the flip is far less likely and should be able to toss sooner. (that said, I did experience the trappings of rushing this once - near horseshoe)" Sounds to me that you could use more life saving training and less nap time. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I am assuming you are turning left on a right slide? Is it like most people that it starts out turning and then you hold that turned position but slide sideways? If so, your lower body input is greater than your upper body input. Put more upper body in or less lower body in. Maybe you can start the upper body first. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They did really well in AFF. You can't run out of time and die in a tunnel. I drill them to check altitude every min of tunnel time. I make them look at their wrist often even if they do not have an alti there. They know how to be stable, know how to move...The only question is the exit, but with them knowing to proper position to be in...I worry less Depends on the person. It does, but chances are you will not notice it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The most arrogant people I have seen have under 1,000 jumps. You start out scared then get some confidence. That confidence builds to arrogance. Then you get humbled by either an accident that got you, or one too many ash dives...Then the little bit of the fear comes back, or at least respect and the arrogance dies. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But you CLAIM you will have no problem with a grand if you had to do it? You hold it in your mind that 2 grand is way dangerous, but you think you will just hop right out when you are lower? Thats bad logic. You agree? then why all the bitching? And the trick is to TRAIN them, which you said you would rather take a nap. So you don't even bother to train it, but you think you will be able to pull it off with no problem at 1,000 feet in an emergency? Sheesh. Personally, I think a 1,000 foot exit will have me crapping my pants . I think I will be able to do it since a 2 grand exit does not bother me, 2 base jumps from 300 feet, military drops from 800 feet...ect...But even then I have no proof. Yet you claim that 3 is as low as you will get out, but if you had to, an emergency would be no problem....Your logic , well, is not logical. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ah, except a 60 foot horizontal swin will not show boyle's law and how it can help you in such an emergency....Atipical, but a great lesson. I see you glazed right over the 3 GRAND exit. So you would rather nap than do somehting that could save your life? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

While I think NEEDING an AAD is a bad thing, or if you let having an ADD let you do dumber things.....It is really cheap insurance and worth getting one. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nice, you can't reply with logic, so you call it a "dick waving contest". Really? I did 30 feet and 60 feet. And there it is right there 'common sense'....Well common sense is that a 3 grand, or even a 2 grand exit is not that dangerous, and the ability to do it could just save your life....But you fear it and so you claim that it can't have any value. Nice. They yelled for her to go...At a later point when she would not go, or clear the door...I pushed her out. Which would have been safer? 1. Her leaving when told? 2. Leaving by force 3. Staying stuck in the plane with fear? The answer should be clear...And BTW she was not a "Student" she almost had a "C" license. Simple fact is that her clearing the door of her own free will was the safest course of action...But her fear of low exits made it so she just froze. You can call this a dick waving contest all you like. But fear of getting out low is DANGEROUS to all on the damn plane...AND I have a buddy that is dead since he freaked out low and pulled the wrong handle. You can claim that I have no clue all you want...Fine. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Bad logic at your experience level "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334