Ron

At last years nationals (The one they had to win to go to the WM) they did a 15.4. They also did about 150-160 training jumps. So that shows that even though they wanted to go to the WM, they didn't train much at all. Tell that to the 10 other teams in Open that had no chance of winning the Nationals and going to the WM. Including 4 guest teams that had no way to win at all. Or the 14 in Advanced, with 2 guest teams and no chance to got to the WM. Or Intermediate with 9 guest teams and 42 teams. To claim it is only the medals that make people compete is myopic, and frankly silly. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Draw? Thats amazing! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nice swing and a miss. Competition, not just winning. You seem to think it is only winning that will get people to compete. You think that people compete only to go to the WM. But thats just bad logic given all the evidence. Anyway its clear you just want to argue. Talbert speaks from a degree of experience you nor I have (Won a World Meet with a female on the same team)....Well you might be qualified, but you will not say who you are, no profile..ect. And when Chris says his two cents, you claim to have "sources" that agree with you that just HAPPEN to be more qualified than a guy that won a world meet with a female . As I see it there are only 6 people as qualified as Chris...So I think you are trolling, especially since your own words bite you: Yet when I say the SAME thing you claim I am "angry" and that I am wrong....Thats just funny. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Really? Last year the US womans team did amost no training at all...In fact my "Not having a chance team did more training". Your statement is an over generalization. Maybe SOME teams would not train as hard, but not all. And the fact we have so many teams in the mid teens goes to show that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats not what this says: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Amazing. You claim that no one with out a 20+ avg that has not been on a team with a woman can make any real claims...With the exception of you. And then a guy that WON a World Meet with a woman says that it made no difference. And you want to claim you know others more experinced than him disagree. He WON a WORLD MEET with a female...I think that makes him more qualified than you or I. They did anyway, and would anyway. You have proof that is the reason? Or are you making an assumption? Maybe women are seeing the barriers broken down against women as skydivers. And THAT is why there are more women? Either theory is valid. If that were the case then there would not be around 70 teams competing for one slot at the nationals. Most teams that compete will never have a shot at a World Meet, but they train anyway. See the above. Most teams going to nationals have no chance of winning and going to the world meet, yet they still train, get coaching, buy gear, and compete. I think it would GAIN something. By recognizing that women are equal in this sport and they don't need to be treated differently. A big problem with females in skydiving is people like you don't think they can be equal. People like me think they can be. Break down that imaginary wall and suddenly women are on top in skydiving. It was nothing more than a vicious cycle. People think women need a special class, so women were not able to be taken seriously. Frankly thats BS. And teams like Airspeed, The Golden Knights, Fire, Sinapsi, Arcteryx, Perris Fury, Elsinore Gravity, AZ Thunder, ect are the proof. Anyway you asked for a Top level person who has been on a team with a female and you got one. With no profile entered and no information about you provided....I tend to think you are just trolling now. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I would think it is even easier to ditch...You only have to ditch the rig. Lets face it, how many people will have the presence of mind when getting ready to land in water to remember to ditch the weights? With out practice I doubt many will remember and fewer will be able to do it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I fail to see why being a cross-dresser means he had to quit flying.........? Oh and I had the FAA guy pull my power on take off...I pushed it right back in. He asked my why I did that and I told him that the first thing I am going to check is the throttle and push it back in. He laughed, then pulled it out and held it out. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

In your opinion. Others are free to have other opinions....Or do you think only your views are worth anything? I'm sure it has tons to do with *skills*. But thats different than just strength. The fact that some of the best skydivers in the world are women speak tons about how sex does not matter. Done a bit higher than a 5 thanks. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I respectfully disagree. However, it is a choice YOU have to make provided you have a license. Get all dressed up, put yourself in a hanging harness and let us know how it worked for you. My thoughts? I very much doubt I could pull it off, and I am a little more experienced than you. But please, try it and let us know if you can. Ask for more information. I have never heard about this type of accident. It is VERY possible. But so is drowning. It is going to be a trade off. If I am nowhere near an open body of water...Then maybe inside is fine and outside has a higher chance of causing a problem. If I am near an open body of water....Well, the I think out side is better. Some info for you. I could find no fatal accident due to a weight belt from http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/ While not all there is, it is one of the best sites to look for these kinds of things. 9/1/1997 South America? BIZ?,LAND? ?/? Description: Rumor has it a four way ended up a mile out to sea. Three of the four jumpers drowned. 2 cutaway much too high over the water. The other person who drowed was wearing a weight vest. Lessons:Never ever ever ever *EVER* cutaway to try to splash down in the water! Every couple of years someone does this and goes in -- just don't do it! If you wear a weight vest and you are jumping near a LARGE body of water, you might want to redesign it with velcro shulders or something so that it can be *rapidly* removed, preferably under canopy. Welcome to skydiving. There are plenty of questions like this in skydiving. On any given day any answer could save or kill you. Which is why it is so important to get all the info you can and make an informed choice. It is your life on the line. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Like everything else, it is a trade off. Personally....I would wear it outside my suit. If I were jumping near water...No doubt about it, I would wear it out side my suit. For fun (And with adult supervision ) jump into a pool with your weight belt on....BEFORE you do this, make damn sure you can ditch it really fast and even then only do it in a pool. See if you can stay a float. I bet you sink to the bottom like....Well like you are wearing a weight belt. I am really serious about having a buddy there to help you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Who is faster? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not complain, just stating that the WFFC does not have the draw it used to. Supply side economics....If you make the WFFC the "Must attend" boogie it was, then it will grow or just survive. The last few years people came back and said, "I am glad I went, but I don't think I would go back." The WFFC needs to change that...*I* don't know how. I like the convention. I wish it would not go away, but it is not enough of a draw to make me want to go, and that is the problem. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And that caused several people to be very angry at the WFFC. Now, I work at an Airline, and I know there was not much that could be done. *I* don't blame the convention...But plenty of folks did. And that was enough to start a negative trend. Then there was all kinds of talk about getting it back...ect and that never worked out. Again, added to the bad vibes. Nope, but it turned some folks. Add in that the WFFC got kicked out of Quincy, lots of political crap, harrassment by the Quincy police....Well it became the boogie where you could go to jump planes you could jump at home and get hasseled by the police. Not saying thats the case, but the *perception* was there. Those folks decided to go to another boogie, or a big way event. Hey I liked the WFFC. But I can say that it does not have much of a draw for me anymore...Add in the high cost, not very special aircraft...Ect. And most folks will just go to a boggie closer to home. To win those people back, you will have to do something that the local boogies can not do....so far you have not done that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yeah, but the same thing can be done at several big DZ's like Perris, Eloy, Zhills. But there is a place for the WFFC. But what they are doing is not working. The convention is shrinking every year. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You can go anywhere. The Instructors should make sure you know the differences between what you did before and what they want you to do. It CAN make the program a bit longer for you. But that is not a given. Jump when you can, where you can. Since the most important aspect is being current. Just my opinion. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well its not what it used to be....But, you will still have a good time. Maybe better than someone that was there in "The Day" since you don't have the large expectations. I organized there in 96. Had a blast. I have not been back since. One reason is that was the same year I moved to Zhills. Living near 3 world class DZ's all with large A/C (At the time just in Central FL I had Otters, Casa's, Skyvan's and a Porter I could have jumped on any weekend. Plus we had Ballons in Zhills.) Add in that everyone said it was not getting better...Well why go, when I lived at a boogie? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

For jumpers: The cost is too high for the benefit. Add in travel, hotel, rental car...ect. WFFC has nothing that a large DZ does not have on almost any given weekend. Specialty aircraft. Heck Skydive Dallas is going to have a B-17 this mth. Zhills has had it a few times. Perris will have a jet at some point. WFFC has not been able to compete with anything really big since the Jet went away. Then there was the whole issue of them saying ti would be there and it never came. That left a bad taste. So its really expensive and offers almost nothing that a large DZ does not offer all the time. For the vendors: Its really expensive. And since the volume has dropped every year, it is hard to justify that expense. The real interesting part is that with less vendors coming, it is more like a boogie at any large DZ, and less people will come. So with less people coming, less vendors see the benefit. But that is not the vendors fault. If the WFFC staff can not compete against Perris, Eloy, Zhills...Then it is not the vendors problem. In General: Skydiving has gotten bigger. Thats good. The problems that came with it getting bigger is that there are more DZ's with turbine A/C. Good for skydivers, bad for boogies. Why travel when you can jump an otter at home? Back in the old days Zhills Turkey meet had 100 ten way teams! The reason they had such a big turnout was two fold. It was one of the few places you get 12000 foot jumps since they had DC3's on the flight line. This brought people who were jumping Cessna's all year out. The people showing up...they brought the party (#2). Ever since the jet went away, the WFFC has not been able to provide great new aircraft. they turned into nothing more than a DeLand/Perris/Zhills/Eloy boogie. The WFFC then tried to talk about how great the party was. But that ended up with us getting the boot out of Quincy. The only salvation is for the WFFC to get really cool aircraft, things a big DZ can not get. And actually provide it, not promise it and then tell everyone sorry. If they have the planes, the skydivers will come. And they will bring the party. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Kinda. Different name, some different folks. Don't really want to tell someone elses tale. Nothing that I know of. But knowing Bob, he will get called a week before Nationals and get on a team that does an 18 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They had me scared. Here I was with this grand plan and shit....And WHAM!!!! Hit from out of nowhere. Fury and Gravity went "Pro" right? Both went fully sponsored and doing 600ish jumps? At least thats what I have heard/read. Fury. ?????. 18.7 Gravity. 600-700. 17.7, 18.2 Thunder. 500. 16.5, 17.5 Dallas Thunder. 300 15.5, 16.8 I can only speak for Dallas Thunder. We have 300 jumps and one tunnel camp planned (Have 70 jumps and 5 hours as I type this, as always under plan). So I don't see us really in that race. Our plan was to have fun and do some jumps. I just got a new job, moved, and bought a house. So I could not do more than that. I wish Phugoid could have stayed together, but the team plan was 500 jumps this year and 1,000 next. So I could not comit to that without serious sponsorship. Now THAT would have been a race. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well I think it is now that 50% of your team must not have won gold in that event before. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So you say...But that does not make it true. But anyway, we will just have to disagree. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

All this says is YOU don't have a body type that is considered perfect for skydiving. That is not to say WOMEN as a whole don't. You want to claim that women are smaller...OK. But I know a bunch of really big guys that are not perfectly suited for skydiving either. It goes both ways, too big AND too small. Not just one. As for how many women you have at your size to jump with...That is a factor of total number of women in the sport. If you had the smae number of men that jump, you would be MUCH more likely to find more people of your size. Strength can matter, but a woman of average size has enough strength to do just fine. Now the TOP people have to have more...But thats true for both men AND women. What I find funny is I am arguing that women are equal...Totally equal. And they are arguing that they are not But if I were to claim they were not as capable....I'd be strung up. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Could be, but what other event? The Nationals is AFTER the WM. Russia? Are they going? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Because I see that it is. Not because of my take, but yours...You claim women don't have the same ability as men. I deisagree. It is special since it does not matter what sex you are. It seems you just want the division for personal reasons. And I really don't care enough to be bothered with this endless BS. You like the division, I don't. You think women are not equal, I think they are. Your opinion vs mine. No one will "win" anything. But having been a man with a male and a female piece partner...I can tell you, I noticed no difference in the air. Sally could move me as well as any other skydiver. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334