Ron

I have been on a plane where a student froze in the door at like 3.5 when in a real emergency. She would not go, she would not clear the door, she just sat there while the pilot told us to get the hell out..... Ask a SL student the same question...Most will have no problem. So while you claim that a 2 K exit will not bother you...Since you have never even done a 3k, my money is on the SL student. It AMAZES me that people are afraid of 3k or even 2k exits, but think that in an emergency they will be fine. It is kinda like saying that in an out of air SCUBA emergency you will be good even though you never practiced it. I think this is a wise choice. It is a life saving skill. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If you have to grab me to make up for your lack of skill.....You will never video for me. You keep telling yourself that. The rest of us know better, maybe someday you will know better as well. You are reminding me of a guy that died just this past weekend....He also thought he had it covered. I hope I don't read about you as a sticky. Maybe you should read this and learn a little http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2346895#2346895 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And if I remeber in Hollys case she could have pulled the other toggle down and not been in a spin...So it applies here as well. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then that is a real issue right? Also, I have seen AFF folks freak out and want to break off higher. It only goes to reason that a person willing to hop n pop from 3 grand will not have an issue with 3 grand in frefall. I'm talking about the real world in my years working with students and spent on the DZ. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't even know the first time I met her. I do remember one time seeing her, and hanging out with her. Then the next day I wondered where the hell did all this glitter get on my clothes I am trying to get back intown to attend the services, but don't think I will be able to make it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Maybe because its the title of this thread? I think you missed my point or the way I tried to get it accross. You did say that it is not anymore dangerous to jump with music right? That has been my issue. It does increase risk, but you have made claims it does not. I wish I knew more about music...And I am sure you would be able to teach me much....I just don't want someone to think its not a big deal to do something like this. Can it be done? Sure. Does it increase risk? YES, can that be managed? YES. But it MUST be managed and not everyone should do it. Just in this thread a girl just talked about fiddling with the ear piece instead of flying her canopy..That is the danger. I was just standing there looking at it, when the owner walked up and handed it to me....I just kinda stood there and looked stupid for a second I don't think that we totally disagree...We both think it can be done, I just think it needs more than just a passing thought to pull off and that not everyone should do it. You would be amazed at the things I have seen kill people. Anyway I would like to know more about your awards...Amazing "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You have never seen a video at someone elses house? Or at a DZ bar? You put "selling them" into it. I never said to sell anything. No but you sure did try and take a slam that I don't know about Music. But music knowledge does not mean jack when skydiving.... But anyway, guess where I was today? I was in Nashville at the press release of Marshall Grants new book about Johnny Cash, "I was there when it happend". When I get home, I'll gladly post pics of me holding one of Cash's guitars. Nope, but how you can claim to know better than me when it comes to skydiving is beyond me....Get my point now? We are talking about doing something while SKYDIVING! That is something I know tons more than you about. If I were so stupid as to claim to know more about music than you, just like you are doing with me and skydiving...Well then you would have a point. BTW, the grammy thing is cool. And of the two of us, who is better suited to judge the dangers what could happen while SKYDIVING? Get my point? Your grammys are cool...Really. But they do not help you decide what risks there are in skydiving....Just like my AFF rating does not help me play guitar, your grammy's will not help you during a skydive. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Throught this the discussion was on altitudes people were comfertable at. I don't know of a single scared SL at altitude in my 13 years. Other than the first clear and pull. I know of many AFF grads that are scared of going below 4 grand, or exiting low. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Making a video mix for your home use is not going to get you in trouble....Hell, send a copy to the artist. This is a load of crap. I could say the same about you...."You are one of those people who do not understand how dangerous skydiving can be and refuse to be serious about it. And I'll never understand those people". Does that sound right to you? Since I "Do not understand music"...Care to explain why I went to a bar in Nashville last night and saw Brent Mason playing? Tell that to drivers Ed teachers...Oh BTW I teach defensive driving for my work. WATCHING, not needing to perform in a high stress environment with possible fatal outcomes. For repetative tasks, yes. Not for complex changing situations in a high speed environment. If you could claim that your music would change if you need to cutaway, I would agree. But, thats not the case here. In fact this argument goes AGAINST you. Lets say you listen to a song all the time and at 60 seconds in a drum solo starts and you pull since you are at 4 grand. Well you would be training yourself to pull at the drum solo and if you got out higher or lower it would change your pull altitude. If you are on a solo with no one around...I could not care less what you do. But you do increase your risk. So lest recap...I don't "understand" music. But I went to a little concert last night to hear Bret Mason play hotwire. I don't understand distrations...Even though I teach defensive driving. I don't understand skydiving, even though I am an AFF I, SL I, Tandem I. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Half kinda correct. A tension knot is when the lines get tangled during opening. It can be one line that ties itself into a knot, or several lines that get tied together. I remember being told that it most times happens to lines with twists in them since a twisted line WANTS to untwist and it can cause it to create loops. I had a single line tension knot on an "A" line on my main. It was just enough that I could correct it with toggle...But I did not have a warm fuzzy feeling so I chopped it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not that I know. I am sure she tried that. You can see from the video that it did not work. #1 it is not always the steering line. I had a tension knot on my "A" line on my main. #2. Hooknswoop did a test where he packed himself a mal and had a hook knife. Even knowing what was going to happen...He was unable to use the hook knife to fix the problem. #3. Even cutting the line may not help the situation. The tangle is still there. Of course it might help...But I have my doubts. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

On the ground...I can. But it is hard enough that I am not sure I could pull it off in the air, in a hurry. Of course the threat of dying makes lots of things possible "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ah but here is the difference, you can ONLY fly CRW when you are jumping, you can ONLY do a tube dive in the air, you can ONLY do a Mr. Bill when skydiving, you can ONLY do a bigway from a plane. These acts DO increase the risk. But they also can only be done in the air. You can listen to music on the ground, you can't do CRW in your living room. So you are adding risk that is not needed for an event that could be done better somewhere else with less risk of death. You like music and skydiving? Make video's with your favorite soundtracks and play them so everyone can enjoy it. No risk of death there. And just like drivers ed will not let you play Motley Crue, or your parents tell you turn the radio down, or how when the weather is crap how most drivers turn the radio off to concentrate on the task....Music is a distraction and how much distraction is worth your life skydiving? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And Oren knows something about malfunctions. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well, my math was bad...I have maybe 2800 with a D ring and ~1000 on a pillow. I have two rigs...One with a metal D ring and one with a pillow; I jump both. Derick T gave me the pillow to try. If I want the D handle he said he will give me one. To be honest I have not had a mal with the pillow yet...My plan is to wait until I do and then make a choice to see if I like the pillow. But I have 6-7 mals with a D ring, so I think I can afford something a little more difficult....And to be honest even then I am not so sure it is a good idea. One thing I like about a metal handle is the ability to pull it with either hand if I must....I can't pull the soft handle with my opposite hand. It is a personal choice...But I like the D handle since when deep in the beeps I like the idea of it being easy to find, easy to grab, and easy to pull. Yes, that means I need to protect it more than I would a soft handle. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Notice that your DZO put black tape on your pillow? That was taking steps to reduce risk. So, you ahve to look at the risk to reward ratio. The real danger with listening to music is not being able to hear right before exit and really under canopy. The potental risk? Killing yourself and maybe someone else. Hell, we just lost someone this weekend to a wrap. Why ADD un-needed distractions? Potental reward? Music. Risk seems a hell of a lot greater than reward to me. And to be honest I would rather not be in the air with someone who is distracted. This is a sport where mistakes are often paid for with your life....Why add BS that could kill you? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They are basicly the same. They are VARIATIONS of each other. You can claim it is new, better, different all day. But while there may be different ways to pack a parachute it really is the same thing. I have seen people who both claim to pro pack do nothing the same...That does not make it a different pack job. If psycho packing is so much better, WHAT makes it better? Tell me what you do that is impossible in PRO packing? This who thing is stupid, but I have nothing better to do. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The dictionary disagress, the media disagrees, your own source disagrees. I can only assume that you take great pride being a sniper for some outfit and take offense at some criminal being called something you take pride in. But the facts show you are wrong. To use your base jump skydiver little bit earlier. If some moron takes a parachute from a surplus store and tries to take it on a base jump...He in fact was a base jumper. Maybe not trained, maybe not skilled, but he took a parachute and tried to jump. So this guy took a rifle, built a nest, and took some shots at a distance at people. Thats a sniper, maybe not a good one, maybe not trained one, maybe not even a smart one....But he is what he is no mater how badly you wish he were something else. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What makes you know better than a DICTONARY? Sheesh, he is a sniper since he used a weapon to shoot someone from a distance. Not that hard to understand. Hell you own source disagrees with you: "In the last few decades the term 'sniper' has been used rather loosely, especially by media in association with police precision riflemen, those responsible for assassination, any shooting from all but the shortest range in war, and any criminal equipped with a rifle in a civil context.[citation needed] This has rather expanded the general understanding of the meaning of the term." "The verb to snipe originated in the 1770s among soldiers in British India in the sense of "to shoot from a hidden place," "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Do you get pissed off when someone pays sticker for a new car? They were not "robbed". You think they were robbed, but I know people who will pay 500 bucks for a tandem...Hell, I did a tandem where they guy paid 1,000 in a chartiy auction...did he get robbed as well? YOU think they got robbed...Some of them might think they got robbed as well...But I know some people who think that you charging 165 for a Cessna is robbing people since they do them for 150 out of a turbine. Are you robbing people? Not trying to be argumentative...But do you see how you thinking this DZ is robbing people can be turned on you for the same reasons? More cost for less altitude. Honestly I doubt that. I have done tandems where we flipped on exit and the studnet had no clue..And Tandems where we went out rock solid and they swear we flipped and rolled like crazy. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Most students do not return and can't tell the difference. Would you be OK with it if they charged less? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Lets see.....I bet you have about 13 hours of freefall? I am willing to bet you have MUCH more experience driving a car. Me? I have about 65 hours of freefall...And that is nothing compared to the amount of time I have behind a wheel. I think listening to music in freefall does almost nothing but increase risk, for little reward. And due to that I can't really say it is a good idea for anyone. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have 2000 jumps with a "D" handle and never had a problem. *CAN* they get snagged? YES. But a pillow can also be harder to pull in an emergency. A low profile "D" handle solves all of those problems. Some people just preach soft handles since they are "cooler" than the older style things. But do you really want your reserve to be harder to pull than it is needed? A person with a mal or two might not notice any difference, but there is a difference. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That argument does not explain why SL folks don't mind breaking off and pulling lower in freefall than AFF folks. But that has nothing to do with what we were discussing. Yes, there is a difference, but why do more AFF Grads than SL grads have a fear of "low" breakoffs? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then you don't really agree with him. Please explain to me how it is more than just a different way to put it into the bag? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334