sinker

Well at least with some religions, they let your drink wine with your crackers. The Catholic church only lets the priest drink. Is there any wonder why so many priests are messed up*** ever been to a Mass? the reception of communion under bread AND wine is the univeral norm. it's amazing the amount of ignorance that exists about the practices and beliefs of the Catholic Church. What is NOT AT ALL amazing is that there is a positive correlation b/t ignorance and predjudice. This has certainly been validated on this thread. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Each religion says they are right and all the others are wrong. If you ask me, they're all pretty mixed up. *** This is another common misunderstanding about Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church acknowledges that there are aspects of truth in all other religions. While it certainly believes w/ all sincerity that w/i it lies the complete deposit of truth as revealed by God, the Catholic Church does not condemn ANY other religion. Read the Vatican document Nosta Aetate and many others. For that matter, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's on the shelves of just about every bookstore! It acknowledges and applauds other religions for their seeking of truth and for the truths that they indeed possess, such as Islam's worship of one God for example. To say that the Catholic Church says that they are right and all others is wrong is simply incorrect. -the artist formerly known as sinker

it's not THE CHURCH, it's one church, the Roman church. Practically every denomination calls itself "catholic", but only one pretends it has the monopoly on truth. Redacting the gospels to bring them in-line with Roman doctrine is not the way to truth. It's the arrogance of people like you that leads to so much anti-Roman-catholicism. *** Thank you for the insult. It is indeed a privilage to be insulted for my beliefs. And I say that w/o sarcasm. For people who do not believe the way I do, the way that over a billion others do, such statements are incomprehensible. So be it. I refer to the Catholic Church as THE Church b/c it was/is the original Christian Church. Aside from eastern orthodox seperations, the Christian world was Catholic until the time of Henry VIII, Luther, Calvin, etc. I'm sorry that the only way you can interpret the claims of the Catholic Church is to resort to accusations of arrogance. Not only of the teachings of the Catholic Church but of me too. If you had any idea of who I was as a person, you would not be calling me arrogant. -the artist formerly known as sinker

However - do not refer to the Church as "She" or as some sort of living entity. That can lead to pride and vanity. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One wonders as to what algorithm of logic led you to that conclusion. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Theology 101 that was taught by a priest with his Masters in Applied Spirituality. *** Please forgive me, but your theo 101 prof should have finished a PhD b/c he was saidly mistaken about the true nature of the Church w/ his little MA in applied spirituality. The Church is first and foremost a She. She is Christ's Bride. He is the Bridegroom. She is the New Jerusalem, redeemed by his salvific death and resurection. She's also His body... He is the head, we are the body. He is the initiator of reconciling man with God, we are the responder. The Church is not primarily an institution. She is that, but that is so secondary. That is why people like me, Muenkel, TheAnvil, can speak of Her lovingly and with devotion IN SPITE of Her problems. Yes, She's got some serious problems... but you know, the Church is often the harlot from the Old Testament book Hosea, whom the prophet takes has his bride. Yet even when she leaves him for herformer trade, he takes her back. Again and again. It's a very good thing that those of you who hate the Church (not directed at you, chasingbluesky) are not the Bridegroom. You're merciless. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Homosexuality is the norm amongst priests (and I have heard MANY firsthand accounts confirming this, from priests or former priests of at least four different orders, Jesuit, Carmelite, Order of Friar Servants of Mary, and Diocesan). They preach against homosexuality in church, and turn around and take part in homosexual relationships themselves. . I have a family member who is a former priest. He left the priesthood because he couldn't tolerate the hypocracy of so many priests not practicing what the church taught. *** Why did your family member leave b/c of the hypocrisy? Why not stay and make a change for the better? All it takes is one light to dispell the darkness. You also betray a pretty underdeveloped understanding of the sacrament of reconciliation (confession) but it's late and I've hardly the energy to expound upon it here. Again, as I've said previously, it's sad to me that so many misunderstand the Catholic Church. But what consoles me is that She has been here over 2000 years. No one has taken Her down yet, b/c no one can. Napolean said that if he didn't get his way from Rome, he'd destroy the Church... In reply, a cardinal said to him, look--we've been trying to destroy Her from within for centuries w/o success... what makes you so sure of yourself? The Church has survived all sorts of attacks, mostly from the scoundrels w/i Her walls. She'll survive all of this vitriolity as well. -the artist formerly known as sinker

another deserved bump... God bless you Michele, you're a beautiful woman! -the artist formerly known as sinker

the alzheimer's one is fabulous! -the artist formerly known as sinker

But he never explained how using natural family planning to avoid the primary Church-sanctioned purpose for sex was any different than using another method to avoid the primary Church-sanctioned purpose for sex. *** That is a very good point. The difference b/t NFP and contraceptive sex is very simple. In contraception, one or both of the parties are actively doing something to disrupt a natural process that may or may not result in fertilization. In NFP, when the couple has determine that the female is fertile and if the couple wishes to avoid pregnancy during that cycle, the couple abstains from sex during the fertile period. NOT acting when wanting to avoid pregnancy is not the same as deliberately doing something to disrupt the act. I don't understand why that is a difficult concept for some to grasp (that is not directed to you, my friend) One other thing... the Church DOES NOT teach that the primary (read ONLY) purpose of sex is baby making. What it does teach is that there are TWO ends to the sexual act, bonding and babies, and the two are inseperable. To try to seperate them does violence to the act and renders it an absurdity. That does NOT mean that every sexual act MUST end in pregnancy!!!!! After all, the desire in the female to unite to her husband perdures even when she is NOT in estrous!!! But even in those times when fertilization is unlikely, sex using NFP is OPEN to new life, even if it is unlikely to occur in the non-fertile period. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Anvil, I found your post simple wonderful and well said. And I won't bother to try and argue against all of those on this thread who hate the Church that I love so dearly. All I can say is that it makes me sad that She is so profoundly misunderstood. And to the post about rape being better than contraceptive sex b/c at least it's natural??? OMGosh!!!! THAT person does NOT speak for Rome, for the Pope, for me, for the Church, for anyone but himself. What an ignorant person you heard and I'm glad you tuned him out... it's just a shame it might have tuned you out completely to what is the real teaching on NFP vs. contraception. It's really a very beautiful philosophy of sex, the Church's teaching is. People just can't see beyond what appears to be "the obvious" to them... that b/c it involves anything other than a free for all that it MUST be therefore very oppressive. Sorry y'all that this thread has stirred up such negative feelings in so many. -the artist formerly known as sinker

f the Catholic Church hates sex so much, they really need to encourage self-pleasure more. *** Vallerina, how can you say that? Read for yourself what the Church even teaches about sex before you make such a judgement! It doesn't hate sex at all! But you won't see that from the outside... read what it teaches... The problem is, most of you won't even take the time to see for yourself what the Catholic Church even teaches and WHY it teaches it. Instead you'll likely just take what the popular media spoon feeds you. It's a shame really. But if you DO look into it, really look into it, you'll be surprised at what you find. -the artist formerly known as sinker

I'm sorry that your belief in the Church was soured. I'm also sorry that you didn't become a priest and try to change Her for the better as St. Francis did. Change from within IS possible. It has happened before. Inspite of the Church's failings, there are still so many beautiful things about Her. One of those is her teaching on sex. You may not agree, but so be it. Now the point I take issue w/ you hear is this: the Church has NOT claimed that AIDS/HIV is a homosexual problem only. Not in the least. I strongly feel that I am correct in saying that, both by consulting w/ the Catechism and other documents. If you can produce something contrary, I'd be happy to read it. Also, I do not completely disagree w/ your logic and the logic of WHO and the like that using condoms will HELP the spread of AIDS/HIV. But it only helps by SLOWING the spread , not by PREVENTING the spread. And the Church is not and cannot be satisfied w/ measures that only slow the illness. This seems backwards to many, but the Church's aim in Her teaching is to aim for the highest good, not at a half-measured approach. Why not aim for what will PREVENT the spread instead of settling for what mearly slows it? The Church does not want dead parishioners. That assertion is absurd. The Church wants to help people realize their full identity as Children of God and this is one of the ways of going about that. Thanks for your reply. -michael -the artist formerly known as sinker

well hello zen... no surprise to find you here... although you're sarcastic, you're not incorrect... such truth did come from God... snear if you will... -the artist formerly known as sinker

First off, the Catholic Church's position isn't being accurately portrayed in the media. This is not new. The Church's position is that yes, the HIV virus is much smaller than the smallest pourous hole found in condoms. Therefore, there is a chance, albeit a smaller chance, that having "condom-clad" sex w/ an infected partner could result in the transmission of the virus. Same thing that no form of contraception is 100% effective, therefore having sex while contracepting could result in an unplanned pregnancy. (But hey, you can always fall back on what our society considers foolproof contraception and abort, in the event your pill fails or your condom breaks.) Which brings us to the next issue, condom breakage. It happens. Period. I don't have stats to back it up, but I've heard it range from 1 in 10 to 1 in 100 to 1 in 1000. And these breaks do not have to be large enough to be detectable to the unaided. Remember we're dealing with a virus that is extremely small. You wanna take that chance? Go right ahead... what the Catholic Church, in essence, is trying to say is that using a condom in sex w/ an infected person will not guarantee you truly safe sex. And given the incredibly high chance of DEATH once infected w/ the HIV virus, is that lusty, dripping, sweaty wonderful sex really worth it? Do you know that your partner is virus free? Unsure? Are they honest? Wanna roll the dice? Not me... However, more important is that the Catholic Church's stance against condoms in particular and contraception in general is based on the biblical view of sexuality, that the purpose of sex is for the unity of man and woman, the two in one flesh, as well as for the possibility of generating other persons, who are created in the image and likeness of God. This is what the medie NEVER say--that sex to the believing Cathoic is seen as the greatest gift God gave to man and woman. And to think that so many think the Church is down about sex... She is only down on sex that doesn't uphold the true dignity and worth of man and woman. Given this, the whole idea of promiscuous sex is seen in its absurdity. Such sex is for pleasure only, which is never a primary end of a corporeal appetite, and not for the higher ends for which sex was created. What a bastardization of what is most sacred in us! Contraceptive sex imposes a barrier b/t the man and the woman thus, not only preventing (possibly) pregnancy, but also precluding true union. "I love all of you and give all of me... except that which makes me truly male.... or truly female..." It is somewhat akin to the person who eats and eats for the pleasure of eating, but then purges afterwards so as to not receive the primary end of eating, nutrition! We don't call that healthy, we call that a disorder. The fact is that the Catholic Church is courageous to stand firm in it's beliefs and uphold the true dignity of man and woman in direct opposition to changing relativistic norms. Along with it's adherence to the prohibition of condoms the Church clearly states that what will truly bring an end to the scourge of HIV and AIDS and the incomprehensible suffering that ensues as a result, is abstinance for those who are single and monogamy for those who are married. Anything less is a pitiful band-aid on a gaping wound. In fact it is the Church's position that the incorporation of such a sexual mindset would go far to cure many of societal ailments. Just think for a few moments and it's easy to conceive. It's just that most people think it is too difficult to live that way and be happy. But until you've tried it you won't know. Perhaps what is most tragic of all is that too many people don't believe abstinance and monogamy are possible and/or desireable. My intent in the horribly long post is not to encite flames or a riot as I've unfornutately done in the past, esp. when speaking about abortion. If you feel the need to flame, so be it. However, it would be nice if we could all just have a nice discussion about this whole topic. peace... michael -the artist formerly known as sinker

Groundzero has the r/c wingo plane and the r/c skydiver that hooks up to it... ask him how it works... -the artist formerly known as sinker

Dude, you sound like me!!!! *** yeah I had that same thought! peace to ya... -the artist formerly known as sinker

that comment wasn't directed at you in the least. sorry if I caused confusion. -the artist formerly known as sinker

HA! Indeed... wasn't much of a game tonight eh? They rocked... -the artist formerly known as sinker

The decent people will understand. The dickheads will not, no matter what explanation you give. *** No chance anyone will misundestand that statement at all, right? -the artist formerly known as sinker

here are some more... holy shit... no one was hurt and it didn't crash... the people are standing on a hill and the plane is on the other side of it. f15 crash... airshow pic, pilot ejected safely. airbus mouth... take it all baby yeah! -the artist formerly known as sinker

what's the matter? sun in your eyes? I was complimenting you man! I like reading your posts! -the artist formerly known as sinker

I'm surprised this thread isn't locked by now. THIS thread is what's sad.*** VERY well said !!! -the artist formerly known as sinker

sorry DD, but you still have my respect for your cogent, erudite posts... -the artist formerly known as sinker

dude, you're amazing! you got it! -the artist formerly known as sinker

re-read deuce's first post... slowly... -the artist formerly known as sinker

hey what's up chris! no it's not a super guppy, you silly man! how's wife and baby? -the artist formerly known as sinker