sinker

ok bill you lost me in the second paragraph... what priest are we talking about? -the artist formerly known as sinker

More like "I wouldn't want a board-certified gay surgeon performing open heart surgery because he might have AIDS." (Not claiming that you are saying that, but that's the parallel we're talking about.) *** actually, no it's not. when it comes to teaching children the tenets of one's faith/morality, it's of paramount importance that the person doing the teaching, IMO, buy into, believe, accept, live what they are teaching. That isn't possible in the case of an actively homosexual person teaching religion in a catholic school. there is a duplicity there that is irreconcilable and is dangerous to children. -the artist formerly known as sinker

4. Most people finally realize that the minority (gays, blacks, women, japanese etc) are people like everyone else, and the idea of denying them rights seems silly. *** How is not letting an active homosexual priest denying him his "right?" No one has the "right" to be a priest. How is not letting an active homosexual to teach religion in a Catholic school denying him or her their "right?" No one has the "right" to a particular job is they are not qualified. Living an active homosexual lifestyle is an obvious disqualification here, dontcha think? I wouldn't want a chiropractor performing open heart surgery. We're not talking life, housing, food, healthcare, etc. here... -the artist formerly known as sinker

Are you implying that the Democrats place less value on education than the Republican party? I find that extremely difficult to believe. Do you have any evidence to support such a view? nicely plucked from the rest - let's just say that both parties are accused of feeding off of the uneducated, the poor, both are accused of a policy of keeping the masses 'basefoot and pregnant' (housewive vs welfare mothers), etc. I don't find either stand out from the other on education. As in all issues, the difference isn't emphasis or intent, it's approach. Your drinking the cool aid if you think otherwise. Ummm - it's the Republicans who need voters who believe they will cut government spending, contrary to all the evidence of history. ALL HAIL THE DNC! SAVIORS OF THE UNIVERSE! -the artist formerly known as sinker

YES that's exactly what I mean, but I'd never verbalized it that way. THANK YOU. It's so clear now. (Don't feel bad, I think every large organized group attracts the power hungry - despite original good intentions, despite that most people are good hearted and are sincere, they all eventually go through cycles of corruption. Even the DNC) you're certainly right about that... -the artist formerly known as sinker

no, I meant about how you differentiate between your beliefs vs cermony (sacrements) vs organized religion administering it all. Do you require all of it to count? Or do the others just 'assist' you in your exercise of your faith? (what? no response on my comparison of the DNC to a misapplied organized religion?) sorry to have missed your point... if I understand your ? correctly, I could still have faith if I were stranded on a deserted island and didn't have ceremony or a formal church (either a building or the instituition), but being a human being, I'd surely devise some sort of ritual of my own as an aid, assist, whatever. However, I think the assumption on which your premise is based is flawed, that ceremony and religion were created to piggy-back on faith, sort of in a parasitic fashion. I don't see it that way. It's unfortunate that so many have been hurt by organized religion and that there have been so many abuses. It's purposes, at least as I see it, really isn't to control and manipulate. I see ceremony and religion as far more benevolent and complementary to faith than that. sorry if this is rambling or of the mark. oh yeah... and did the dnc as misplaced organized religion really require a remark?!? -the artist formerly known as sinker

but is that what he is really saying bill? I'm not so sure... I thought he was saying that he didn't want homosexuals in the catholic church teaching his children about morality and religion. I didn't hear him say that he would dismiss gay people out of hand as people. Are you stretching this just a little bit? -the artist formerly known as sinker

I seriously believe that the splendor of the organized church (sweeping arches, tons of statues, etc) was purposely designed to make the ignorant feel small and dependent. Keep em stupid, keep em dependent, keep em in awe. Much like the democratic party. it's a normal psych tactic. what's your take on that? *** my take on that? I think that's an incredibly paranoid and pessimistic view of things and I'm sorry you feel that way... when I'm in St. Peters or St. John Lateran or Notre Dame I don't feel small and dependent, I feel swept up and part of of all. -the artist formerly known as sinker

you've got SERIOUS talent! those are just awesome to look at! -the artist formerly known as sinker

Personally, I'd much rather have Keith, or Scott, or Emily teach my kids that a priest who's been accused of pedophilia then sheltered by the church. But that's just me. *** I'd rather not have any of them, thanks... -the artist formerly known as sinker

__________________________________________________ Nope .didn't forget ya,just been busy! But hey Sinker, I've got a question for you. Lookin' at your avatar, are you the Pope or just a "good guy" in a yarmulka. Blues, Cliff my avatar is Pope Bean! You know, Mr. Bean? Didn't you know he became Pope? So no, it's not me in the avatar... -the artist formerly known as sinker

oh hun, i wasn't trying to make you feel guilty! I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention at all. I didn't take it as a slam either... in fact, the headline DOES read a bit severe, doesn't it... no harm intended, hugs, md -the artist formerly known as sinker

good lord I'm such a dork wait I can personally attack myself can't I? -the artist formerly known as sinker

OMG, heaven forbid! what a horrid thought! Pope Benedict is really a very kind and humble man. My wife and I received communion from him and spoke with him. He's quite and gentle, not the bull-dog fire breathing nazi he's been made out to be. -the artist formerly known as sinker

I don't mean to imply that that was the original purpose of the ceremony. Ritual has been around much longer than Christianity. Jung even found religous symbolism in the collective unconscious. Some people need that symbolism and ritual much more than others to experience their relationship with a higher power, whether that higher power be Jesus, YHVH, Nirvana, Shiva, Allah, the Tao. But the symbolism is not the message. The I Ching (yin / yang), the Star of David, and the Masonic Lodge's Compass and Square all represent the same relationship between the masculine and feminine. For that matter, the relationship between sin and cosine in a right triangle was likely used for the same concept by the Pythagoreans. This duality is a basic tenet to nearly all religions worldwide. But we don't think of the Taoist and the Jews and the Christians and the pantheists as sharing basic beliefs. We look at them as different from one another instead of being similar, when their similarities far outnumber their differences. It may not be the purpose of the ceremony, but it is a result of it. ah.. thanks for the clarification... -the artist formerly known as sinker

yes dad. -the artist formerly known as sinker

i didn't bring up the wedding ceremony example b/c priests are important to it... the question was about why do we as humans need pomp and ceremony... the ceremony is important, I would say it's necessary... your very words were... that msg IS important and that is what the ceremony communicates, just as funeral ceremonies communicate other msgs, ordinations others, high masses, etc. etc... the poster I was responding to was questioning the importance of ceremony itself, saying it was only to seperate "us" vs. "them. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Very adult I'm sure "the priest is a representative, a shadow, a figure of not only christ (who was a man) but of God the Father. How can a woman stand in that place? What does the symbol of woman do when put there? " Followed shortly thereafter by "God the FATHER has no gender" You play games with the rules, some of which apply and some don't on account of cultural context (head coverings etc) without eplaining any way that determination can be made except arbitrarily. You explain away inconsistencies by insisting that words have different meanings to God than to us. The list is so long I can't believe you take yourself seriously when you deny doing it. you obviously have no clue what sexual symbolism means. in many ways your worse than a fundamentalist. moses stood at the head, he sat in the seat... he was the head... he personified God as Father... b/c God chose him to represent Him as such. Chosing a woman wouldn't make sense. The symbolism would be contradictory. I'm not playing word games, you're just not opening your eyes. -the artist formerly known as sinker

__________________________________________________ Without going into specifics, the topic was basicaly that Americans allow their government to trample their Rights and don't have near the cajones of our Founding Fathers . I was banned for asking if someone was "waiting to grow a pair". That wouldn't be considered a personal attack in my community when I'm talking to the boys on the corner and jokin' and jivin', but this isn't my community. Obviously cultural differences abound the world over and what might be seen as an insult in one culture is common practice in another. Myself, I'll try harder to understand the social idiosyncrocies of DZ.Com and attempt my level best to be a good netizen and an asset to this community. As a matter of fact, I have an idea. At this point in time DZ.Com doesn't have a for Blacks only forumn even though they do have a Girls only forum. I wonder if it wouldn't benefit the community to have a Blacks only forum where Blacks skydivers could talk with other Blacks skydivers about Black issues in the language and manner that those of other races might not quite understand. I'll even offer to be the moderator if HH agrees. Blues, Cliff wow! well thanks for tellin me, I was wonderin if you forgot about me! see ya! -the artist formerly known as sinker

It seperates "Us" from "Them." Which, ironically, is exactly opposite of JC's message, as I understand it. the ceremony is not to seperate Us from Them. We need the ceremony. Why are there wedding ceremonies after all? Swearing in ceremonies? While it's true there have been abuses, that is not why they exist fundamentally. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Good reply. But I don't think the best to God is how I look. It is how I act. I am pretty solid in the idea that if I belonged to a church and we were completely poor and had no gold or rings or gilded outfits to show off, but were pious and devout, God would accept us all the same. If that is true, why do we need all the ceremony? JPII may have lived as a monk, but there are plenty of Cardinals and officials who STILL use the power and wealth of the Church to their advantage. If it were not there, then the only thing left would be the Word of God. And in the end, that is all that matters. After all, the first shall be last and the last shall be first. Just another fundamental difference of opinion. *** thanks... and an excellent post by you I must say... reminds me of what the pope said when St. Francis went to meet with him to get approval of his order of monks... he said, you in your simplicity, put us to shame. -the artist formerly known as sinker

You can't do a better job because you are arguing without logic on your side. In order to appear consistent you have to play games with the meaning of words. do words ever have more than one meaning? all you are is an antagonist john. i don't have much to say to you other than to kiss off. In that case why do you keep sending me insulting and offensive PMs? The fact is you can only justify the position you take by playing word games. You know it, and we know it too. )o(

does God need it? No... do we? Sure. First, we should give our best to God. Look at Martha and Mary... Mary washed Jesus' feet w/ expensive perfumed oils and was criticized by Martha for it. Jesus didn't say, "what a waste!" We don't serve dinner for the president on paper plates. Second, the riches, the paintings, the statues that are amassed in the Vatican are there as a repository. They are their in preservation. It's like the Vatican is civilization's photo album of sorts. Sure, there has been corruption w/i it and previous Popes have squandered some of the treasures of the vatican, but the proper mindset of the collections of the vatican is that of a steward and nothing else. JPII's mentality was the right one... none of it was his, he was just to watch over it, to help preserve it for man kind. In fact, he commissioned and oversaw the restoration of the Sistine Chapel. He ordered the removal of all the extra loin clothes that were painted on after the fact due to all the prudish cardinals who were scandalized by the nudity. Yet when he died, JPII was penniless. When he was younger, when he would be given a new razor, he'd give it away to a poor person and keep his nasty, dull beat up one. When given new shoes, same thing. The gold, the gilded cloth, is there for the office, not the person, similar w/ the presidency, etc. -the artist formerly known as sinker

norbert is the cutest!!! -the artist formerly known as sinker

all the gold they acquire and flaunt... says alot about your perceptions right there... and the pope's hat... instead of dismissing it as worthless sillyness, why not try to understand where it comes from, why it exists? you miss out on a lot of richness in patently dismissing all of it. have you ever been to Rome? -the artist formerly known as sinker