rigging65

Thank you! I couldn't remember what they were called to save my ass!!! Is that for all models? I could have sworn I packed a rig for a guy and they we're that thick, OD green elastic webbing...of course, it was several years ago, so I could be very wrong.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

When S/L students do practice pulls, they're practicing what they're going to be doing when they do it for themselves, right? Not practicing doing something, then changing once their Instructors are not longer there... IMO, it's the same argument as SOS systems...why teach it if it's not going to be used in the real world, when there hasn't been anything to say that the "real world" system is any more dangerous when used in the field? Again, you can pass or fail anything in theory, but it's in practice that it "earns its wings" so to speak... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

It is... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

There's nothing wrong with a Teardrop. Any good rigger should be able to handle it. You might want to secure a manual to let your rigger use...in case they haven't got one or seen one before. The wings is a great rig too. Not my personal favorite, but there is certainly nothing wrong with it! I think you'll be just fine with either... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Yeah, 'cause you know, everywhere in California is always 70 degrees and sunny...oh, and we all surf to work...and hang out with movie stars at coffee houses, too...sheesh... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Think about how you close your D-bag. Loop (rubber band) through Grommet. In this case (at least in some cases...) the loops are made of cord (dacron usually), and are on one side of the "split" with grommets, button holes or other smaller loops on the other side. You lace a piece of Dacron through the locking loops after you've put the slide back together. Lock the end of the cord off somehow and you're slider is now one piece. After opening, you unlock the end of that pull-cord piece of Dacron, pull it out and the sldier splits in two. *Note- the more locking loops there are, the more "solid" the slider is. Using only 2 or so loops results in a big gap in the slider making it less useful. Ouch! FWIW, I've also seen this design using type III tape loops to make a piano hinge between the two halves and a piece of cutaway cable run through them to secure the sides together. Not a terribly useful design for modern HP canopies...with large grommets and narrow risers you can simply pull the slider down and forget about it without having two halves of a slider slapping around. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I love crap like this... Rather than making people learn about how their systems work and why, like we did not all that many years ago, (which would lead them to understand that some of the gimics offered don't do dick for them except cost more) we're raising a class of skydivers that we aren't forcing to learn anything because we don't want to offend them or "bother them with details" and have them take their money elsewhere... Gotta love a market economy sometimes, huh? Heaven forbid people learn that this sport isn't safe!... They might be concerned for their own safety and the safety of those around them and learn how to be safer!! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Cool! Next time I'm doing 250kts, I'll be sure to have those on my rig! Seriously though, I've heard that before, and it just reinforces to me the fact that it's a gimic without a real place in sport skydiving... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

To me, this is two separate problems. The first: It doesn't sound like the correct Instructors were on the jump with this student. I'm a big guy, and I have a lot of range, but I know my limits. I game out the worst case scenario with each student, then make a decision if I can work with them. If they're super small and I think they might go flat, I'm not the right guy for the job. It's always a gamble with students, as any one of them can fool you. But going into the game already at a disadvantage is a bad move on the Instructor(s) part. I've seen more than one prideful AFF/I get hosed when they knew better...I've been there myself as well. The second issue: Did the student do live pulls on the ground? It's always a great idea to do live pulls on the rig you're going to jump. I throw the student on a horizontal trainer and have them pull at least twice. It takes all of 30 seconds to do, and it'll let them know how it's going to feel. It might also alert you to the fact that they're having a problem. As with most any incident, this seems to have been a chain of events. The chain stopped when the jumper used her training and kicked the reserve out. Way to go skydiver! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

They are a bit more forgiving...but what happens after student progression when you get hand-deploy gear at 20 jumps or so? Now you're not being as closely watched and there is no one there to save your ass if you screw up...and you've already developed a certain muscle memory that you've got to overcome. If you learn with BOC from the beginning, you've got Instructors there paying attention to no one but you and you never learn any different muscle memory or procedure. Why not learn the style you're going to be using for your entire career, from the beginning? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

AS I understand it, no, there are no weight limits to TSO C23b components, but you'd still be limited by the load limits for your canopy. Whichever limit is the lowest dictates the limit for the entire assembly, when used as a system. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Hey man, you're entitled to whatever opinion you want, but it's certainly possible to have any and all of these problems occur on the magic Mirage risers, I assure you. Riser length determines where the toggles lay in the pack tray. Shorten the risers, and the toggles move up in the pack tray...eventually running into the riser covers. It doesn't take much to start applying pressure on the riser covers either. Sometimes as little as 2 inches of change can be a problem. There are other ways this can happen as well... With the extra bulk of the Mirage style double tuck toggles, the slider grommet that came down further than it was supposed to and twisted slightly was lodged tightly against the toggle... The toggle couldn't be freed, not could the slider be easily moved. The jumper was able to free it eventually, but it took quite a bit of time, and probably wouldn't have occurred on a less bulky set-up. The fact is, there are several different styles for just about every part or piece of a rig. Some look better than others...some are marketed better than others...some simply are better than others. But this is all based on your experiences and frame of reference. No one is telling you what to believe, but you'd be a bit of a fool not to at least acknowledge that there are things that can happen that you a) may not have heard of or b) may not have had happen to you personally. Keep an open mind. You'll live longer... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Ummm...NO... LINE DUMP (or LINE STRIP) is when the lines come off the bag before reaching full stretch. BAG DUMP is when the canopy is out of the bag before reaching line stretch. They are not the same, and one is not dependent on the other. That is, you can have Line Dump without Bag Dump, or the other way around. Please use these correctly, as they are very different terms. One isn't a big deal, the other is a HUGE deal. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I'm aware that's it been around for decades, but that doesn't mean it's not a gimic for the sport world. The fact is, we don't need line retention systems. Simple as that. It's been proven time and again...and not having one is the standard on pretty much every freebag out there...and they've been working just fine for years as well. Just out of curiosity, why don't you like freestowing? Do you have a specific reason, or is it just the idea of things not being "ordered"? Honest question, no hidden strings.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

hookitt's got it right, ballistic cloth. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I think it's a system like on some military diapers where you use a hook to pull lines through alternating elastic "tubes" sewn into the diaper. Not sure how long they are overall, but I do remember seeing them somewhere along the line... Nice idea, sounds kind of gimic-y to me though. It would certainly keeps the lines well organized but it seems like quite a bit of extra work for not much gain... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Unless that extra bulk is causing a problem with safety...like forcing riser covers open, or catching up the slider grommet on a hard opening because of the extra bulk. Both of which I've personally seen happen on Mirage rigs with the new style toggle keepers. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Again, bulk. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

As a rigger, you're not the S&TA (unless, of course, you are ). You (the rigger) are a technical operator charged with maintaining a product as dictated by the FAA and the Mfg. of the gear. That is where you're actual responsibility stops. It needs to be within spec. when it leaves your shop, that's it. BUT, part of being a rigger is also being better informed and more knowledgeable than the average Joe. To that end, IMO, you have the moral responsibility to tell your customer that you're concerned that s/he's over the weight limit. Now, the real person getting screwed here is the pilot. If you read up on it, the Pilot in Command is responsible for all the people on the plane, as well as their equipment. That means, if you're out of date and get into the plane, you're risking the pilot's cert. It also means that if you're over the limit on your reserve (the legal limit) then you're putting the pilot at risk in the event of a ramp check. Not a very cool thing to do to the guy that's taking you to the top floor, is it?... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Yeah, unfortunately you're correct... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

This is precisely why many CReW jumpers don't use RSLs. They want separation from the mess they just left behind. The difference for everyone else (ie - not intentionally doing CReW) is that you are usually at a low altitude if something like what you mention were to happen, so you might not have the time to "get away" before you run out of altitude. Also, most jumpers not intentionally doing CReW aren't getting that close to other canopies on a routine basis... Also, if you have a mal on a CReW dive, it's up high as you open right out the door...thus why it's commonly referred to as a "door mal" by CReW Dawgs...a "mal" generally refers to your stuff not working after running into or being tangled up with someone else. Because of this (much) higher-altitude, the speed advantage of an RSL is not really necessary. So, couple the facts: CReW = more time spent close (touching) canopies, thus you're more likely to getting tangled. You're opening higher, thus you've got more time to deal with standard malfunctions. You need to get separation from a whirling ball of crap that you just cut away from (and you're probably several or many thousands of feet up). All this results in the scales being tipped in favor of no RSL for CReW dawgs. Other sport jumpers, on the other hand, are usually lower, with less time to get the reserve out, and without the "ball of crap" following them. Thus, the RSL makes sense. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Mine says 6.5 lbs... Probably close to the same size as yours. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I'm sorry, you're totally correct. I didn't re-read the "rest" of the screwups when I finished that post. The velcro is no big deal, but the bartacks an heavy pull certainly are. Like I said, IMO, it's a lack of pride thing when people don't do something so simple as mating velcro properly. That's interesting. I see where it says to "clean off any excess thread-loc...", but no where does it say to actually apply it! I guess you can't clean it off without applying it, huh? Hmmm... Yeah, that was pointed out to me...but again, no where does it actually say "in and up". And there is at least one other diagram that looks "out and down" to me. (PDR manual, 2002, Pg. 32). It has the steering line (at least it appears to be a steering line) to one side (which one might assume to be the outboard side) and the barrel nut to the same side. It also appears that the longer side of the shank is "up" in that pic...meaning it would be "out and down". I wouldn't argue that the pic could be totally the opposite of what I've said, but without written information it's pretty vague. I guess that means they don't care, huh?

I'm not disagreeing, but think about this: It took 10 years to build confidence with jumpers who had been around to see the Pre-Cypres days...it took much less time to sell it to newer jumpers who hadn't seen the negatives of past AADs. Most of them look at an AAD like a seatbelt. Why on earth wouldn't you want something that is probably, most likely, going to save your ass from death when you can't see death coming? With the "mainstreaming" of the sport and with more new jumpers every day, young jumpers are becoming the market majority...and that's who, IMO, mfgs. are marketing towards. What's the saying... If you're gonna be young, you'd better be tough? (I've heard it with "stupid" in place of "young" also ). Young jumpers don't have the advantage of hindsite and experience, but they also aren't jaded by things in the past...things that occurred when there was much less money for good R&D in the industry and standards were lower.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Neither of these two issues are addressed, as per the newest edition of a PDR manual, IMO, the barrel nut on a link should always face down and be to the outboard side of the riser. The reason for this: the link is more likely to stay tight, and gravity is not assisting it in "un-spinning", rather, gravity can only help keep the nut tight (as stress is put on the link, then relaxed, gravity actually does have an effect on the nut). Having them outboard means that, should the link shatter in the threads (where it normally does), the separating link will most likely still have the nut attached. The nut will serve to (hopefully) retain the lines on the link. This means that you're not going to lose one line...then another one...then one more...as you're flying along. The broken threads on the other end will (again, hopefully) snag the riser and help keep the link in place. What this comes down to is that you're more likely to loose the entire riser group at once, as opposed to over time...as you're getting closer to the ground and running out of time to cutaway safely. No mention is made anywhere in the Assembly section about using loc-tite or a torque stripe. I'm not saying these are good ideas, but you can't technically be "wrong" by not doing them...according to PD's manual. The other issues, as you said, are no big deal, but, IMO, they do show a lack of pride in work. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."