rigging65

We had two of them (from the same batch) have their cases come apart on our customers (actually, the same customer, on two idfferent units). Evidently, it had something to do with the glue they were using or something. Alti-2 graciously took the units back and replaced them. Other than that, they've been jems!...although they haven't sold as well as I thought they would have, thus far. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

As was made evident on several VX canopies. A larger slider can radically increase the amount of bottom skin exposed to the wind before the slider starts to descend the lines, thus making for more "area" to catch air and cause a more rapid deceleration and a harder opening. Of course, there are other factors that play into it as well... We had a customer that was simply getting punished by his VX. We asked for help after trying some of our own fixes, and Icarus sent us a new smaller slider. I made the mistake of informing the customer about what had transpired and he flat out refused to jump the canopy. I put a few jumps on it for him to prove it was ok, and he was dumbfounded. It's about geometry, surface area, and tension...but the most obvious "fix" isn't always right...or even in the right direction! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

???I thought we were talking about PCs here??? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

If you know that you're not going to be jumping for a while, it's a good idea to unpack your canopy (or canopies if it's going to be a loooong time). Store the unpacked canopies in dark plastic trash bags, without contact with metal (grommets, links, etc.) in a climate controlled room (a hall closet is usually best). Of course, this means you have to repack before you head back to the DZ, but it's the best storage method to keep your gear from rotting, becoming dis-colored, etc. *Note: most damage to your gear will come from contact with metal, rubber and moisture. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Cool! So now all we have to do is get PD to release their info...which they haven't been willing to do for the last 6 years that I've been asking them... I support a single method as well (obviously) and I could care less who's it is. It's my personal opinion that its almost arbitrary anyway, so it really doesn't matter if you're jumping a 135 that is actually 170 square feet...as long as every 135 is 170 sq. ft. Jumpers will figure out what works for them and they'll adapt...but they can't do that if everyone is on different pages. That goes for pack volume too! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Hey, like I said, if you're having softer openings, great for you! Maybe it's just the canopy you're jumping. I've jumped Stilettos, Crossfires and Xaos canopies over the last few years and have regularly changed pilot chute sizes, bridle lengths, whatever: It's never made a difference. The only noticeable change was the time to took to get the canopy out of the container, which was almost completely due to bridle length. Glad your openings are better...but I'd get a canopy that you don't have to force to make open nice if I had the problems you did. Just my $.02 and three years of test jumps worth... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

If you choose to count yourself in with PD, than I would have to say that by not posting the information you are, in fact, not all about safety. If you disagree, then maybe you can convince them to release documentation? I'll be there right next to you asking them for it! You are, at least partially, defined by the company you keep (and defend), Ron. Here's a great chance to improve safety for everyone, no? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Well, if you did enough jumps on the canopy to really be scientific about your testing, than by the time you changed to another p/c there certainly would have been some trim change. And, if you had done the same amount of jumps on the new p/c (again, to be scientific) there would have been even more trim change. Sounds to me that it's pretty tough to pin the problem on any one specific item, no? As for the "other" possible problems...canopies are dynamic animals. You can never pack it exactly the same twice in a row. The slider could have been slightly different, the nose placement...who knows. You often hear of people going through "bad cycles" in their packing. They get a week or two worth of bad openings and then it suddenly goes away. Who knows what causes these changes? If you changed the p/c on your rig and you don't have any more problems, good for you. But I'd be hesitant to say that nothing else changed or that it must have been the pilot chute. Parachutes are systems made up of single items that all work with each other to produce a result, not individual items doing their jobs independent of one another. I'm glad your openings are better!! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Great...way to be an "industry leader".... PD is the biggest...which should also give them the responsibility to 'do what's right'. If PD is too stubborn to change to a standard developed by others, fine. Then post, in writing, the method that is used for measurement...and stick to using it. Here's a news flash...PD won't do that! It would be bad for business...even if it would be safer for the jumpers. It's been asked of them several times before to reveal their methods for measuring, and you all you get is double talk and smoke and mirrors. Marketing...way to help maintain safety guys.... BTW, the PIA standard was written by Cliff Schmucker, Sandy Reid, George Galloway and others, not by one person. I have heard (but cannot confirm) that there was in-fact a PD representative there as well. I won't reveal whom I have heard it was, as I can't confirm it. PD wouldn't agree with the system put in place, but they helped design it?? I've also been told, by a very reliable source, that PD "wouldn't even touch" the area of standardizing pack volume. That's the way to be an industry leader, all right. You don't want to play by someone elses rules, fine. But at least make the rules available for others so that they can play by them...and make the industry a safer place. Consider it a direct challenge. I want things to be safer for my customers...what do you want? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

It's been out for some time...I'm not sure when it was released. Yes, PD was already using their own method. As I understand it though, and I could be totally off base here, the PIA standard was "closer" to what most other Mfgs. were using...and further than from what PD was using. I think the thing to remember here, is that it doesn't matter a damn bit what 135 sq.ft. is. What matters is how each mfg's 135 sq.ft. canopy compares in size to one another. Square footage is almost an arbitrary thing. If a "150" is too big, you go to a "135". It doesn't matter if a 150 is actually 140 sq.ft. or 160 sq.ft....as long as everyone's "150" is the same, and that there is a measurable difference between other sizes (ie- a "240" is pretty close to twice as big as a "120"). IMO, sizing is about marketing. If it weren't, companies would agree on a way to measure. Does it really matter if we know we're jumping a 135 or a 138 and they fly the same?? Probably not. Does it matter that you jump a 126 and a 120 and they are nothing alike? Yes. But the mighty dollar rules, and safety takes a back seat to "marketability", thus there isn't standardization...its either that, or its a "we're bigger than you, so do it our way" issue.... sad, really. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Read my lips..."marketing".... Ever flown a PD 176R and a Raven -M181 in the same day? The PD flys much "bigger". It also packs much "bigger". Coincidence or Marketing? There was/is a standard set out by PIA for canopy measuring...but PD opts not to use it. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I'm assuming you did this on the same canopy, right? If that's the case, there are other things that could have caused the change besides just the P/C. Changes in trim come immediately to mind. As well as one or two others... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

PD certainly has one of the finest test programs in the world, and they are, without a doubt, industry leaders. I'm constantly amazed by the stuff they do. With that said though, it doesn't mean they can't be wrong... ...and it seems like their (PD's) argument is the only thing anyone is hanging their hat on here when arguing against this. They're good, but they're not Gods. Yes, they are very good at what they do. Yes, they are very thorough...but so is NASA, and they've been wrong before too. All I'm saying is it's totally possible that the process they use to test, given procedures, whatever, might not allow them to collect some data that is collected in the field, out of the controlled environment. I think it's fair to say that anyone would be remiss not to admit that it's possible that there is another way to skin this cat. And, if you admit that, then you have to admit that PD might not be perfectly on target with this... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Yeah, but come on...they're pilots. Soft asses, soft egos "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Wow, thats like +/- 40% off the "ideal". Seems like an awful lot of variation to me, if we're to believe that P/C size is that critical to openings... So, were you not impressed with the way it extracted the bag?...or the way it fit in the pocket? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Great! So, what constitutes too quickly? What size P/C would that be? Like I said, if you're "large" P/C were giving you 50-60 mph more deceleration than your "small" P/C, I'd say there's a problem...but they're not. So, again, define the size(s) that causes these problem....I'm not sure that you can, nor do I think any definition would be valid at all times because there isn't enough variance between them! So, we're back to: Pretty much any P/C on the sport market (not BASE) is going to result in about the same openings for a given canopy. Sliders and line trim, folks, sliders and line trim are where its at... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

The only problem with that statement (which I agree with whole-heartedly) is that the "finer points" are the law. One that is not subject to interpretation...more's the pitty. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Fair enough! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, 'cause I don't buy it. The slider is so much larger a component when it comes to hard openings that I don't think even a 10-15 mpfh difference in the bag's speed is going to make a damn bit of difference. If I arch my ass off during a deployment, I'm probably doing about 135. If I get huge, then pitch, I'm probably doing about 115. My canopy opens the same regardless. If the change in decelerative effect was 50-60 mph, then I might buy it, but the differences just aren't enough, IMO. I agree that everything must work as a system, but I'd say the P/Cs job in that system is simply to get the bag to line stretch. Canopy design, trim and Slider placement and design/size do the rest. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Hmmmm...I disagree. There is certainly more snatch force generated by a bigger P/C, or a longer bridle, but does this really have anything to do with how the canopy opens? The bag gets to the end of the lines faster, but does it change the opening? I think we can agree that your bag certainly reaches line stretch faster if you don't stow your lines, but that doesn't change the opening characteristics...so why would the bag getting to the end of the lines faster because of the pilot chute be any different? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

If you think about it, it makes a lot more sense to start from full flight if you're looking for speed (or distance). With a carving approach, you're building up speed as you go. Why start with less speed (ie- in brakes) then use part of your approach building that speed back up? Now, if you're main focus is accuracy, then starting from brakes kind of slows the whole picture down. This, in theory, lets you spend more time with your setup, getting to the exact position you want to be, at the exact altitude you want (if you're good . This is basically the way I've been flying my Xaos (and X-fires before that, and Stilettos before that) from day one. IMO, its a function of what you're trying to accomplish... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Yeah, I looked it up and didn't find anything about max weight...which is why I asked, in case I missed something

Yes, excess line can cause a problem...but usually its from not having enough line left over, not from having too much. If you leave the excess too short, it has a tendency to migrate towards the middle of the tray as the bag is extracted, causing it to catch the corners of you're reserve tray. This usually just results in nasty line twists, but it can actually damage the container system by tearing the reserve tray loose of the main tray. If you're leaving three feet of line out, you should be just fine. That's about how much line I usually leave out, if not a bit more. If you cleanly coil the line into the bottom of your container (against your back) then carefully roll the bag into place, you shouldn't have any problems catching the loose lines. Think about this as well: If one of your line stows does manage to get caught up by a portion of loose line, as the bag extracts, having a bit more excess line in the bottom of the container gives you some slack to allow the stow to slip loose. At the worst, you're probably only going to get line-twists...but I kind of doubt you're going to run into that. Sounds to me like you're doing everything right...just keep it clean and neat! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Anything can be fixed...you just might need to find a bigger loft for some of the bigger things BTW, fixing a toggle keeper does not qualify as a "bigger thing". "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

So is there a max load on it, or not? 80% of 660? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."