rigging65

I agree with some of what's said here and disagree with other things. First off, the statement that the FAA doesn't want to be bothered with the change is only partially true. The discussions that I sat through at PIA stated that the FAA has deferred to PIA to make a decision and put that information forth. After this is done, they'll look at (and most likely approve) what PIA presents. To me, this says that the FAA understands that they don't know what the hell they're looking at, so they're going to defer to the group that has expertise in the field and to whom the rules will be applied. From there, what I got from some of the folks sitting on the Rigging Board, was that they had personal issues with moving the cycle to 180 days. They have basically himmed and hawwed over it, drug their feet and done little to move it forward. Why? You've got me, but it certainly isn't based on any information they've collected. After clearly stating that they would need to do some testing because there was little or no real information available for sport rig pack tests, John LeBlanc of PD raised his hand and offered to share PD's considerable data about the subject with the board. To be honest, the board seemed stunned. Now, why hadn't they approached canopy Mfgs. about this sooner? Who knows. I mean, it's not like canopy Mfgs. might know something or have done some tests on this or anything. By the way, for any of you out there who are still under the impression that 180 days is too long to keep your reserve confined and still have it open properly, ask PD why their reserves are factory certified to be packed for up to one year between inspections, or whatever time frame a legal body sets forth less than that. There have been studies, there have been tests...but some one (or ones) on the board simply don't want to see it go through. If you really think it's going to change the money that riggers make per year, I think you're mistaken. Some folks will change their rates to keep the amount they make from any given jumper per year the same, some won't. At the end of the day, business is business and it will continue to be that way. My much bigger concern and worry is why is the group that represent Manufacturers dragging their feet and not showing reasons for the lack of movement on this issue? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

The coolest part is that the entire setup amounts to two small webbing risers and some hardware. It can be added to about any rig out there (mostly) and is easy to use. At the end of the day, it's just a toy...but it's fun and beats lugging around a big old Three Canopy rig, IMO. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

We've got a couple of guys with them out here that seem to like them. They also seem to have about the same spin-up rate as about any other elliptical out there. Personally, I'm not in great favor of Atair as a company, although they seem to do a great job dealing one-on-one with single jumpers. They DO NOT seem to be able to deal with their dealers or perspective dealers (at least not in our area). Remember, when you buy a canopy you're not just buying fabric. You're buying support and you're paying for advertising. This is why I would normally go into a tyrade here about buying directly from the Mfg. and Mfgs. not supporting their dealer network, but I won't do that....here.... Mfgs. make stuff...that's their job and they do it well (most of them). Dealers provide service and work with you to make it better when it's not good...that's their job and they do it well (most of them). Use each as is appropriate to their job description. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Let's not forget physics either here. A smaller student moves the CG up into the Instructor with the Huge rig on his back. If things go wrong, it's just that much easier to end up on your back. At least a big student keeps that CG lower and helps you keep some assemblence of belly to earth. I had done few Tandems before I got hurt doing them and decided I was done, but I know for certain that (for me) bigger students were easier to deal with than little ones. Now, I'm a big guy myself, so that helps with the manhandling in the door, but once your into the blue, I think most everyone is in (or near) the same situation. CG is still CG. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Of course, rather than get this big old rig out, we also built up some simple L-bar attachments that go under the existing 3-rings on your rig and allow you to jump whatever you want, cut it away (with the two pull tabs again) and go back into freefall under your own rig. The only thing about it is that you have to brown-nag deploy the "test" main, or direct bag it out the door. Either way, it's about flying the canopy not freefalling it, so the system seems to work well and is less bulky. ...we did, at one point, build up a pretty cool main D-bag with a BOC on it for deploying yourself off the step on this set up...so many ways to have fun!!... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Both from the same post....hmmmm.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

We actually sold ours...it wasn't getting enought jumps on it. Keith Wyatt's got it now. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Our 3-canopy rig had a big old reserve (with Cypres) and two mains. One packed on top of the other. Both with hand deploy PCs for both (although they were ROL, they could be made into BOC without much trouble). The only difference from a standard rig was that the main you intended to cut away wasn't separated with a handle, but with two pull tabs mounted on the risers themselves. We mocked it up with a cutaway pillow once, but it didn't make much sense to have someone cutting away using a pillow, only to deploy the next canopy from an ROL... of course, if you put a spring loaded PC in the second main tray, and rigged it to a Reserve handle.... Ummmm....something about violating TSO I think...oh well, it's a rigger day-dream... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Yeah, removable Third Leg risers. They're set up so that they can be used either as conventional risers or have the third legs looped on...all in the field in about 2 minutes! Nice little design, if I do say so myself, but they are a bit more bulky that if you built the Third Leg right in. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Not so much a hindrance, just more 'bulk'. I've got removable Triples (which creates bulk just above the 3-ring, metal riser inserts, snap-fold toggles, drive loops, RSL rings, a toaster, you know the list just goes on... Actually, I like the webbing-flap stops. All the ones I've seen/built have had plastic inside them which tends to get tired over time (or crack). I saw a guy once with double type XVII, but that made my CReW risers look thin! Like I've said before...it's what you like. Maybe if my risers were more "streamlined" and less "rigger-fied" I'd like them more. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

God, I've already got so much crap on my risers...that's what I need, more stuff hanging off them! Actually, I think (for some) this is a good way to go, I know folks who jump that configuration...some like it, some don't. It all comes down to what works for you! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I haven't read this entire thread yet, so I may be repeating what someone else has already said, but I generally encourage our young jumpers to make a jump or two without an altimeter. Not Students, but certainly someone with around 50-100 jumps. Sometimes just a mid-altitude (say 6K Hop'n'Pop), maybe a bit higher. The first one I ask them to turn their alti under their wrist and only look at it after they deploy...to see how close they are to where they thought they were. After that one, then another one (or a few) without it at all. Not saying that this practice should be done all the time, but being so super dependent that you absolutely must have an alti (or cypres???) to make a jump signifies a serious problem with self-trust and confidence to me. How is someone who is absolutely, 100% reliant on an alti going to react if it sticks while in freefall? Are they just going to "trust their instruments"? I think this idea works for pilots, but that's because they have back up instruments to look at. If all we've got are our eyes to back up our altis, and we don't have faith-by-trial in our eyeballs...... the word 'bounce' comes to mind. Instrumentation is great, but you've got to have confidence in yourself to be a safe skydiver. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Just different Mfgs. that's all... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

A removable slider setup exists. Basically it's a two ring system at each of the slider "grommets" that allows the fabric to be taken off and only leaves a ring floating atop each riser on the line group. It's kind of a cute idea, but it's a pain to reset each time and is a bit overkill for most jumpers. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I'll start this by saying the following: THIS POST REPRESENTS MY OPINIONS ON MY PERSONALLY TESTED EQUIPMENT ONLY. I DO NOT ADVOCATE OTHER PEOPLE USING THIS INFORMATION IN IT'S CURRENT FORM TO CHANGE THEIR GEAR CONFIGURATIONS! I've used a setup like the one you're talking about before (actually just borrowed a buddy's rig that had it) and played around with it a bit on the ground, it seemed to work well. I can't use it on my current rig (Infinity) as the top flap is too wide, but I would if I could. What I've done is to bartack a ball (old Vector RSL ball) onto the yoke tape of my rig. I attached a loop on the trailing edge of the slider and have a rubberband larksheaded onto that. After I get everything opened up and flying, I simply loop the rubberband over the ball. It works well. To be honest, it doesn't release as well as I'd ideally like with tension on it (ie - as on a cutaway). On the other hand, with my loadings and the rate I come out of the sky, my battle plan doesn't include me cutting away my main after I get it flying and everything stowed. IMO When flying canopies with very fast descent rates, some of the rules change. There are just very, very few scenarios that I can come up with when I'd have time AND altitude to cutaway after getting everything in landing configuration and starting my decent. Anything at low altitude will find me trying to add more Nylon over my head, not removing it (just my personal choice...kind of a fall back to my CRW education). With this in mind, I don't mind the extra security of this method. I understand the risks and I accept them as they are. I also jump a stowless main D-bag, something lots of folks think is nuts, but it works great and I love it. I think it has more positives than negatives for me, but that's because I designed it, tested it and understand it. I also use snaps on my toggle instead of velcro, I like it, it works and it's low maintenance. Is it perfect? No. But, again, I understand it and I choose to use them as an option. (Isn't being a rigger great??!!??) Educate yourself and make your decisions off that education. Just be aware of where you collect your data from! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Umm...I don't think that's the greatest idea in the world. Alcohol dries out everything it touches. This could cause the Nylon to become brittle and it might discolor it as well. I've never tried it, but I'm not real big on using ANYTHING but mild soap and water on a rig...who knows what some other chemical might do to your stuff? For those of you that might try using Alcohol for spot cleaning, please be sure you rinse the area thoroughly with water after you're done. Again, I have no proof that using the stuff could cause a problem, but it seems like it could, ya know?? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Personally, I thought the Crossfire2 was a bit doggy as compared to the original. Still a nice canopy to fly though, and pretty much the only one in it's class. If you're looking X-braced, I love the Xaos. Sweetest openings of anything I've ever been on, great recovery arc, lots of flare, yadda yadda yadda...I love it. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

There are about 12 different ways to measure square footage...which is why it's almost and arbitrary number anymore. I would suggest you call the individual manufacturer and ask for the cordial length of the size you think you've got and compare it to the canopy. Another way is to check the 'A' line length against a chart and get the size off of that. The short answer is there is no single way to measure a canopy with a tape measure and get a square footage that is going to be the same as the manufacturer's. They are almost all different. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Get a pull-out... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Be careful what you use! Woolite is specially designed for gentle agitation and cold water, some other cleaners my be less-than-good for use on Nylon. Also, some will cause colors to run, do some tests first! Incidentally, we use Murphy's Oil Soap when we wash rigs. It's a gel-like soap that works wonders. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Just throwing this out there, but what happens this September when the min. jump requirements for Licenses goes up? Will all the Instructor Requirements stay the same (ie - "D") or will they revert to a "C" to stay closer to the jump number requirements? I don't know, I'm asking. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

DZs don't generally run their student programs to facilitate instructors keeping their ratings current. If the student count isn't high enough to keep you current at your current DZ, and you really want to be a coach, move yourself to a DZ that has more students. Or get out there and advertise for your DZ and help bring in more students! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

My big problem with this is how often is that "personal-rigger" working on his/her rigging skills? Someone who (assuming they follow the letter of the law) is only packing their rig 4 times a year isn't very current. Would you let your rigger work on your gear if that's all the more work they did a year? I doubt it. One reason why people get rigging tickets is to fulfill their curiosity, as has been stated. Many of those people realize that they won't be doing any rigging after the course, and that's ok. The ones that scare me are the ones that are gung-ho about it, get the ticket, then just use it as a call-line on the DZ. You know the ones, those guys that have to throw out the "Yeah, I'm a rigger" whenever the new chick (or guy) is around. They fall into the same category as the curious jumper/rigger who just wants info, but they're dangerous because they can be goaded into doing work they shouldn't be doing. As for the FAA's standards and not feeling real secure with someone who can just barely get by, what do you think the DMV does every day? Standardized testing is just that, a single test that can be used to qualify people to perform an action. Whether or not they're really good at something is irrelevant most of the time. Sad, but true. And you wouldn't want to pay the rates for rigging work if the criteria were as stringent as it "should" be.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

That is absolutely not true. We've taken many people who had never seen a parachute before and had them totally capable at the end of our 8 day course. That's not to say they were expert riggers, but with a lot of hard work, nightly reading assignments and good old FOCUS, most people can learn enough to get their ticket in a week. There is a lot to learn, and not everyone passes, but it is certainly possible to reach a level of expertise that the FAA will sign you off for in a week. Of course, any prior experience is always helpful. And, as I've already noted before, ANYONE with a brand new ticket is probably not qualified to rig totally unsupervised. Again, a Senior Rigger's ticket is a license to learn, and it should be treated that way. An intensive course is a great way to get your feet wet by through total submerssion in a very structured environment. It puts you way ahead in your learning curve and allows you to find your own personal weak points to work on later. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Our courses run about 8 days long. At the end of that there is a written, oral and practical test that you must pass. Once this is done, you receive a seal number and away you go. As someone else mentioned though, BECOMING a rigger is an ongoing process. You're always learning. Just because you have a ticket doesn't mean you know everything there is to know for the level you're certified at. Working under another rigger after (or before) you get certified is an excellent way to learn more and become more proficient! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."