rigging65

Who's going to do the research and spend the money to see if this is true? What company out there is willing to take the liability to trust numbers that come from another industry? Someone else posted a $600 cost option. Is the market willing to absorb these costs on a scale that will actually provide a profit to the Mfg.? Can anyone guarantee it...or even show evidence that it MIGHT work out??? I understand the risk-to-reward scale, but I think it's also very close to the Stupid Business Decision-to-Bankrupt scale. This is a pretty huge gamble. You've got to put the money out up-front then hope to re-coup it later on...anyone from the Gates family want a job at our company?? The argument that we'd still be jumping T-10s and belly mounts if we let the military do all the development is also silly. The military has done lots and lots of work with Ram-airs, true not HP stuff, but they've given the sport industry lots of ideas to work with. We just run with ideas that look good and modify them into other designs as we go. Very few things (that are cost intensive) have come purely from the skydiving industry. Most the examples I saw given for pure skydiving ideas are truly wonderful ideas, but no one was out a life savings if they didn't sell. I would even argue that the 3-ring wasn't a pure skydiving invention. It was a modification of a design found outside the industry that was (masterfully) reworked into a usable product for our sport...but, unless I'm very wrong, it was a workable design out in the world first (you know, the world were there's real $$ available). IMO, I just don't think the consumer is willing to foot the bill for what it's going to cost to get into using a new material for Rings. Now, we're just a little, tiny company working out a new design, but I know we couldn't even begin to front the costs. Too bad, it'd be way cool!

That's a big variable as well. Most of the expense is tied up in drop testing (once you've finished all the initial R&D of course = $$$$). We did confidence drops on the Viper, about 8 of them, and I think it ran us about $3000. Now, let me clarify this: The owner of Trident H&C also owns a DZ and aircraft. We did bring in a King Air to get the speeds we wanted, but regardless doing anything with an aircraft is expensive. Costs can vary based off a bunch of stuff. I, too, was a Mt. Biker before I got into skydiving...but think about how many Mt. Bikers there are compared to skydivers. When you have a million+ person market, it makes spreading out costs much more realistic. In skydiving, we have 30,000 or so registered jumpers. How many of those are active? Of those that are active, how many are buying gear this year? Of those, how many are going to buy new gear? Of those, how many are going to buy any given rig? The numbers don't line up real well, but the cost-recovery balance is way out of whack when you start looking at major undertakings like introducing new materials to a TSOd item (like a harness using new materials). We're such a small industry, we basically rely on the leavings of other (ie - hardware used in other applications or by the military) in order to make our products. This is not only the case, but ask BillBooth about trying to defray costs on custom built hardware, he's been there and done that...it's mostly ugly. I keep falling back on this, but if the military hasn't switched the stuff they use, there is probably a reason...and they've got tons of money to burn and lots of rigs to buy! Hell, they keep certain companies funded all by themselves! Why do you think CPS came into existence? There's money in them thar' gov'ments! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I agree that it would be nice if DZs would try to enforce some standard of control, but let's be honest, the problem is with the people selling the canopies to individual jumpers. So we blame the dealers, but, the ones we really need to consider are the trunk-dealers with no overhead to cover and no misgivings about selling anything to anyone. MOST reputable shops will do their best to sell the jumper what they need, not what they want. But in order to keep the lights on (especially in this world where you can ALWAYS find something cheaper on-line) a shop is forced to bend to try and keep their doors open. Why is it more expensive to buy from a shop? Do you think those sewing machines are free? How about the wages to keep someone on staff who knows what the hell they're talking about, not just what the print ads say? What do you get for your money? Experience and the solidarity of knowing that shop will be there to help you in the future, because you supported it with your business. I can't tell you how hard it is to deal, day in and day out, with people coming in with some on-line quote for gear that simply blows us out of the water. Not that this "company" has ever had contact with the potential buyer they gave the quote to, nor do they care in most cases. But this is business, so screw morality, just sell the damn products! Right? You basically get chastised for trying to guide someone in the right direction because, "They're adults and make up their own mind about what they want to fly" then you get laughed at when you quote them...even when you explain the extended service they gain from working with a reputable shop and the help they'll have if/when something goes wrong with their gear and it needs to be fixed or sent back. Then you get yelled at when you won't bend over backwards to fix their broken equipment, that they didn't buy from you, on Friday afternoon at 4PM! If you want to blame someone, blame the folks selling out of their trunks, cutting the margins down to nothing and not caring who they sell to in order to make $50. Be part of the solution, people, not part of the problem. Shops exist to be there to service you and your gear for the years to come in your skydiving career...don't run them out of business by buying from some 'dude' and saving $100... That's enough, I'll get off my soapbox now...... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I'm probably gonna take some flaming for this, but here goes: I think this is a great idea for a system...there is some tweeking that needs to happen IMO (basically to accommodate lighter weight persons), but overall I think it's way cool. I've been an advocate for Canopy ratings for a long time, but since US Jumpers (just like US citizens in general) wouldn't know a good thing if it smacked them in the head, it'll be a cold day in hell before we see it. We're all so caught up in "I can do whatever the hell I want" that we seldom stop to think "Hmmm, if there's a rule saying I can't do this, maybe there's a reason." Now, I'm not saying we should get rid of HP canopies, but rating them wouldn't be a bad idea...except for all of us asses out there that would feel that "some damn agency is always regulating my life!!!"...heaven forbid we educate some people and save some lives. I fly a highly loaded HP canopy, and I got there through education over time, not luck or "getting away" with it. You want to fly the hot rod, make more jumps, spend more time in the sport, LEARN MORE! Flame away... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Generally speaking, if the RSL ring is hanging off the side of the riser (as opposed to off the back) then the risers are side specific (assuming you want to use the RSL, otherwise it doesn't matter). Most rigs are designed with the RSL shackle routed to one side or the other of the MLW. If you route the shackle under the MLW you're mis-routing it and creating bad juju. So, given that the shackle has a specific routing, a side hung ring needs to be on the same side as the correctly routed shackle!

I apologize, you are correct. Now go ahead and get your pocket book out and just keep writing zeros after a 9 until you run out of room. You guys have got to remember, you're not just paying for the process, but for the certification fees and for the marketing and...oh yeah, PROFIT, forgot about that....Titanium, come on... BTW- Powder Costing is no good, it'll chip off and wear too quickly with metal on metal contact... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

For anyone in the area interested: SkyDance SKyDiving is holding it's annual Safety Day this Sat, the 8th. They're hosting breakfast (pancakes, eggs, and the like...all compliments of the DZ), then a couple of different lecture sessions. They intend to be jumping by 11:00AM. Safety Day is a great way to knock off the dust and get back in the groove for the season...and with free breakfast none-the-less! Start time is 8AM, so don't be late! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

For anyone in the area interested: SkyDance SKyDiving is holding it's annual Safety Day this Sat, the 8th. They're hosting breakfast (pancakes, eggs, and the like...all compliments of the DZ), then a couple of different lecture sessions. They intend to be jumping by 11:00AM. Safety Day is a great way to knock off the dust and get back in the groove for the season...and with free breakfast none-the-less! Start time is 8AM, so don't be late! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

You're from the Midwest, you know all about those "natural Summer shade puffys..." "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I did ALOT of research on this, as we were considering offering colored hardware on the new Viper. This is what I found out. True "anodization" is only done on aluminum, which means you'd be introducing a new hardware, which means LOTS of testing and paperwork (read:$$$$). I'd also assume, although I have nothing to back this up with, that if the military hasn't converted to aluminum (as they're constantly trying to reduce weight) there is probably a reason...again, I have nothing to confirm this...maybe someone out there does? I also looked into color-plating existing materials. There is a Cad. process that lets you add color, but it (like all Cad. plating) is rather toxic and so costs $$$$, and you have to get rather large quantities of each item...more than anyone but the biggest MFGs. could handle...and it's only in one color. Many Hardware MFGs are also fazing out Cad. plated products (for cost reasons $$$) which is why some rig companies have been batting around the idea of going all SS or Nickle. Additionally, the colors in the Cad. process were pretty lame. Not like in the anodization market. I had a couple of companies very interested in trying to work with us on it, but, let's face it, skydiving just isn't a big enough industry to foot the bill for something this grand. At least not the way it was laid out for me. So, sorry guys, unless one of the other MFGs out there has found some other way to do it, you're pretty much stuck with what we've got already...although we'll most likely have black hardware available, as there is some of that floating around out there from Military lots. Personally, I think it would be a super-hot option, but sometimes the $$$ just don't outweigh the cents. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

The way the ring is designed, at least the way they sold it to us at PIA, is that the middle (elongated) ring has a slot built into it that is supposed to keep the ring from rotating off axis. We'll see!

Just remember this: UV decays Nylon at a given rate. Everyone has seem sunburnt canopies that are a few (maybe many) years old that are brittle and give way under tension. Your canopy (if you pack in the shade) probably sees about 6 minutes of sun per jump, your container sees alot more than that. Granted, Cordura is stronger than Ripstop, but UV absorbtion is still a big deal. Pack, stand, wait, hell if you can pull it off skydive in the shade! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Yes, they can be fitted to RWS rigs, but right now that's it. Any other Mfg. would require paperwork changes and modifications to their TSO (of some sort) to allow it on their rigs. That was kind of my whole point...it's not going to be real easy to get it on just any rig you want to jump, at least not right away... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I don't think this is correct at all. You're introducing a system that interacts with a TSO'd piece of gear (the reserve deployment system). It also interacts with the RSL. By simply sewing the Hook onto the reserve bridle, you've created an alteration/modification to a TSO'd item. This requires approval to do. Both the Reserve Deployment system and the RSL must have drawings and MOS sheets onfile with the FAA. If you change anything to these items, you have to refile paperwork and get the changes approved. Now, you might be able to write these changes through as "Industry Standard" if you're MIDO is cool with you, but I can pretty much guarantee you ours wouldn't let it go at that. Having dealt with the FAA on these issues for the last year+, I can tell you this. If you change much of anything to the TSO'd portions of your rig, they're gonna want to see something proving it improves the design, or they're going to make you retest. If the Skyhook turns out to be as cool as I think it's going to, MFgs. might decide to go to the lengths to include it on their rigs, but it's not going to be as simple as just "adding it". "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Fusion = Mid-level 9 cell (like a Sabre 2) Synergy = 7 cell Nitron = HP eliptical (like a stiletto) Having flown all of these canopies, I can tell you that they are truly an awesome line of products. The Fusion is a very responsive, fun to fly 9-cell planform. They are being sold, you just have to ask for them. We've gotten smaller ones and very large ones (in fact, we have a 280 sq. ft. Fusion that we use for big AFF students, and they love it). It's a great canopy, with great openings. The Synergy is your standard Precision 7-cell canopy. Very nice openings, stable planform, long control range, great sink rate. It's a great Demo canopy, as well as being sporty enough to play around and throw a stack together with. The Nitron is probably one of the finest Stiletto-class canopies out there. I like the turn rate of the Stiletto better, but the overall opening-through-landing performance of the Nitron is the best out there, IMO. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

The Miniforce system is basically an elongated RW3 ring (bottom ring on the riser). Essentially, it adds a longer lever arm to the system, making it more effective. Their big argument is that the tolerances for the 3-Ring system as it exists today are so exacting that they're difficult to build correctly, and if built incorrectly they aren't as functionally correct or efficient as they need to be. This elongated ring basically allows you to build with a larger tolerance and still get an efficient system at the end. Listening to Ian describe it, the comparison they made was that of an incorrectly built standard 3-ring system compared against a correctly built miniforce system...seems like a worst case/best case scenario to me, but whatever. On the plus side, the risers will be able to be fitted on any existing rig. On the neg. side, they "weren't able to confirm a unit price" at PIA...which reads to me that it's not going to be cheap. I spent some time after the lecture speaking with a certain very well known inventor and innovater in the area of skydiving canopy release systems (who's name I won't put out there, but it should be obvious). His response was something to the effect of "Ok, but the reduction in pull force they're getting is less than the amount of drag generated in the cable housings. Why not work on that instead? It's all of a pound and a half savings per side. A gimick? Maybe, but you know everyone will have to get them...." I guess they're going to work, but it seems like there's not a whole hell of a lot wrong with the 3-ring as it exists now, and we know it works well. Not that I'm against innovative change, but.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Ah yes, marketing....gotta love it.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

We use commercially produced trainers. They're molded plastic, sitting up on a 3 foot high frame...keeps the JM from having to lay on the ground for the student to get the right picture. They also rotate around a center point for turns I've also used a simple creeper, does the same thing. I've always been of the opinion that whatever you use for a Horizontal Trainer SHOULD NOT put the student into the perfect body position. I'd rather force the student to put themselves into the position rather than have them assume that all they have to do is hang out and their body position will be ok. Yes, they complain and it's a bit of work for them, but that's how we train muscle memory. Every AFF/I out there knows what happens if you don't drill your students hard on body position...you go for a ride. IMO, a trainer should help the student's body position, but not do it for them. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I totally agree, but just to CYA the Mfg. is always going to size large so they don't get hosed. It's the unfortunate truth, and it's also why a very current local rigger probably knows better what's going to fit well in a given rig than even the Mfg. does! Of course you're also right about putting the blame back on the Mfg. if it doesn't fit when you get a rig in... I guess that's just one of those fine-lines dealers walk, eh? In reference to your Mfg.-sized Infinity, Kelly does a pretty damn good job of being "field correct" with his rig...we've got no complaints at all up here, but we also work with him very closely.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Absolutely, but I bet it'll be a pain to get it cross-certified for anything but RWS rigs. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Something else to consider. Pretty much every manufacturer out there "recommends" a rig size that is about one size larger than what most sport jumpers would pick on their own. The reasoning behind this is that the Mfg. doesn't want to hear from everyone out there who can't get their canopy easily into their new container. NOT EVERY MANUFACTURER DOES THIS WITH THEIR SIZES, but several do.... Ask the Mfg. what size they recommend, but you might also speak with a rigger who knows his stuff and has been around for a while (ie - has packed enough of a given rig to know how they size up). We routinely order rigs from SunPath that are smaller than what they recommend size wise...otherwise, downsizing can be a real challenge. We've never had a problem of anyone complaining the rig was too small, but we have had a few complain that the rig was very soft and was bigger than what they wanted when we didn't size it. I'M NOT RECOMMENDING THIS FOR EVERYONE, but a really good rigger should know the "field sizes" for the rig...Manufacturers hate it when I tell people this "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

What's been said here is correct, all I would add is some info about canopy material: Ripstop material is designed to "stop rips" (imagine that) due to the pattern it's woven in. However, external treatment of material can change that. F111 canopies tend to rip slowly, over time, restricted by the "ripstop" boxes in the material. What that means is that usually a small hole in F111 can be left for quite a while without it developing into something larger. It can also be patched simply with rip-stop tape. Doesn't even require any sewing, but it is usually sewn down to keep it from coming back up down the road. ZP, on the other hand, tends to tear huge when it goes. This has to do with the way it's treated (how it's made "ZP" after it's woven). What this means, is that a small tear can quickly run the length of the cell when it loads up. Another issue is the location of the hole. Leading edge of the center-cells see the most load on the canopy, followed by trailing edge of the out-board cells (on opening), followed usually by the leading edge of the out-board cells then the trailing edge of the center-cells. Obviously, less load means less tendency to enlarge a whole, but it doesn't eliminate the chance. So, overall, anything smaller than 1/8 inch. is generally fine (we use the "pinky rule" sometimes...if you can get your pinky finger in the hole, the whole is too big), but if it's ZP I would get it patched as soon as it's practical. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

That's not true...I think there's more than that..... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Each container is sized on its own. Sure, they give or take room off each other depending on what you've got in them, but any compitant rigger will tell you that your reserve is going to fit or it's not...what main you put in there is only going to effect how the main tray closes...something I'm not terribly concerned with as a rigger...nor do I really have much control over. I've been doing this for a pretty long time now, and I feel confident that I can pack most things and make them look good...but what my customers do with their mains (ie - sloppy packjobs) in the field is something I can't control. So, our loft does the best we can to be middle of the road perfect... what happens after that is out of our hands, but resizing your reserve to make up for your main isn't something I/we would do or recommend. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

And this is a sensitive subject, to be sure. I often recommend to people looking to buy gear that they should stay on demo gear a bit longer first. Yes, it costs a little bit more upfront, but think of the heartbreak of turfing your new rig in and scuffing it up! We're a very customer oriented store. We take alot of time dealing with each individual jumper...sometimes more than the Boss would like! We'll never be the cheapest, because of our overhead, but we'll always strive to do right by our customers. And that's the reason we get some much repeat business. If you're trying to figure out colors and options for your new rig, talk to the folks in the yard...if you're trying to figure out sizing and long term planning for use and resale, talk to your local dealer/shop. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."