olemisscub

Number one, I don't have to explain anything. I'm not the FBI. I'm not bound by their metrics or beliefs or intuitions or opinions. I can PERSONALLY eliminate a suspect based on whatever I want, the same as you do. Number two, this memo you always reference where it says there is a lower bound of 5'8 clearly wasn't something they applied because several agents eliminated suspects for being that short. So appealing to authority on this issue doesn't work. I personally think Cooper was about six feet tall based on witness statements and lo and behold, so did case agents like Ron Nichols. Go look at the Boeing File Review eliminations. They eliminated multiple individuals literally for no other reason than them being 5'8 to 5'10. Then we've got multiple occasions in the files such as these instances, including one document where they say the lower limit is 5'10.

Two witnesses who never saw him standing.

And I'd wager a great sum of money that if 4 people saw you standing that none of them would think you were 6 feet or taller. Yet with Cooper we have 3 of the 4 witnesses who saw him standing going as tall as 6 feet tall or taller. According to statistics, 81 percent of eyewitnesses get height within 2 inches. It's statistically improbable that the witnesses who saw Cooper standing would ALL be that far off. Shoes can only do so much. As Nicky pointed out, a person's proportions likely also go into how our brains calculate height. To think that a person who is 5'8 (I don't care what sort of Al Pacino shoe lifts they are wearing) would be mistaken for 6'0 or 6'1 is an absurd notion to me. Their overall body types are different looking.

I don’t think it’s anything more complicated than Scott being extremely taciturn as an individual. Rat is the complete opposite. Rat wouldn’t have just taken it upon himself to do that given that he was outranked in the company by Scott, so Scott must have just deferred that role to Rat.

Honest question: Why do you think the FBI cares enough about NORJAK to be playing games? Also, I'm pretty sure we have the complete unredacted transcripts. Himmelsbach's grandson had a copy with Ralph's stuff and Cunningham scanned the entire thing. Nothing remarkable at all behind the redactions. Just info about other flights in the area, etc. Not sure why that was redacted in the first place.

I change regularly. I go with however the evidence persuades me. I'm not married to any particular viewpoint. Why would I be? Why would I care if Cooper jumped at 8:11 or 8:15. It doesn't matter to me. I'm very malleable actually. I just need to see enough evidence to persuade me. As for the time of the jump, it's not evidence that is making me lean a certain way now, it's the lack of evidence. My understanding of Anderson's interviews was that they waited a while after the pressure bump then called to report it. So why isn't this call documented? Why isn't it in Soderlind's notes? Why isn't in Lowenthal's notes? Or the other NWO notes? I would think that would be an important freaking thing to document: the crew telling you "hey I just think he jumped." Yet we DO have them documenting the hell out of the "oscillations" call. Every single notetaker from NWO documented the oscillations call. But nothing at all about a pressure bump call. We have the FBI transcript from the oscillations call and it has a parenthetical inserted that says Rat lost his ear piece when he turned to look at the cabin rate of climb indicator because of an "increase in pressure." How would they know to include that parenthetical unless Rat or NWO told them that's what was occurring when his ear piece popped out? Unlikely they would insert that unless they knew. Case agents wouldn't have just made that up. Additionally, in that transcript Rat appears to be a bit shaken up. It reads as if he just experienced the pressure bump and was taken aback for a second. He's at a loss for words (for once). We've been told that the oscillations were only seen but not felt. Rat wouldn't have been reacting that way if he was just reporting on something they were seeing in the gauges. He seems shocked as if he just felt something. Rat's reaction makes it seem like the pressure bump occurred WHILE he was in the middle of reporting the oscillations. If so, then Cooper jumps at 8:11 or 8:12. The Vortex has dramatically complicated his jump time. I'm guilty of it obviously. But the lack of any reporting about a post 8:11 "second call" is really hard to overlook. Sometimes absence of evidence IS evidence.

Surprising to see you put so much faith in the FBI considering that you believe in the western flightpath. Those same documents, all of which are on my website, support the idea that they were strictly following V-23. I’m not arguing against an 8:11 time, as I’ve begun to independently see the merit of that time. I’m just surprised that you would appeal to authority on the jump time but not on the location of the plane.

Everything you do in this case is tainted by your belief that lil Bill Hahneman, the biggest fruitcake of the canonical copycats, was Cooper. You’re not an objective researcher. You already have a conclusion in your head and so any analysis you do on the evidence of this case is colored through that perspective. And I’m not wrong. They could have easily made Honduras without refueling on a regular 727 and they DEFINITELY could have found somewhere to refuel outside the U.S. Bottom line is that Hahneman wasn’t afraid of refueling in the U.S. It was even his own suggestion. Yet you’ve spent the past five pages arguing a theory that relies on Cooper being so afraid of refueling in America that he throws his plan in the trash and jumps ASAP. The Cooper in your theory is not Hahneman. Hell, even if they DID have to refuel to make it to Honduras from DC, then why didn’t the uber genius Hahneman hijack in Atlanta or Miami or New Orleans to begin with?

At most he could have had an approximate location of the plane when he jumped depending on what he could see on the ground, if anything. As I've said numerous times, the most I'll give him is that he knew he was in Clark or Cowlitz county when he jumped. He could have estimated by the passage of time roughly where they were as long as he knew they were flying south, which is something he could have gauged by looking out the window after they got airborne (given that he knew the Seattle area from the air). Regardless, he left too much up to chance to be totally sure where he was jumping. V27 was a viable option for the pilots to take, especially given the situation, as it put them away from population centers. Yet we're stuck as a community with this nonsense that Cooper created "conditions" by which he could have had an exact DZ.

Much more indeed. It's mainly based on you trying to shoehorn Hahneman into Cooper. And Hahneman didn't need to refuel in the US. They could have easily made any number of Caribbean countries for refueling. So why is he so scared about the FBI waiting for him in Reno that it forces him to jump into unknown territory in Nov 71 but then he's totally cool with refueling in the US in May 72?

Provide me with some proof of that and I’ll gladly give you the credit for what it’s worth I’ve never understood why anyone cares about the placard anyway.

What is the lie? and it’s “low level speculation” to point out that he may have wanted to jump back where he started because that’s where his transport might be?? This is your problem with everything. If it’s not your idea then it’s the most stupid insane idiotic moronic idea ever. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a more obvious example of that than today. You asked me why he would want to jump back where he started. I give you two extremely logical answers for why he would try to jump close to where he started. And I even gave the caveat that this requires him starting his day in Portland. You proceed to call that idiotic speculation with no proof yet you’ve been essentially writing wholly speculative fan fiction coming up with elaborate theories about where he really wanted to jump based solely on assumptions about what Cooper was actually thinking. Your Hahneman post yet again makes me ask another question. Why is Cooper the shyest guy around in Nov 71 and then seven months later he is making no attempt to hide himself from passengers and jibber jabbers constantly with the crew? How can you explain the difference in their personalities?

I said IF he started his day in Portland. Those are ABSOLUTELY logical inferences IF he started his day in Portland. Sure, he may have flown into Portland days earlier and may have been staying somewhere for a few days. Or maybe he flew in that morning. But it's absolutely logical to think that if he began his day there that he had transportation there otherwise you're totally relying on him arriving in Portland by air. We have NO way of knowing how Cooper got to Portland. Yet you are essentially telling everyone on this message board right now that you KNOW FOR A FACT that Cooper flew in from somewhere else and didn't drive himself to Portland or have an accomplice who dropped him off. Because having proof of that is the only way that it isn't logical to think that if he started his day in Portland that he may have been dropped off at the airport or drove into the area himself.

This whole theory seems to rely on you thinking he changed his overall plan when he demanded stairs down at takeoff. You don't know what was in his mind at that point. I find it much more likely that it went like this C: we will lower stairs after takeoff but I need the girl 305: how about we lower them halfway and you let the girl go Soderlind: can't be done, they are only open or closed. No intermediate setting Tina: sorry sir, now they're saying they don't have an intermediate setting, so they can't do that. Cooper: (inspired by the idea of them taking off with stairs halfway down realizes that it wouldn't be such a bad idea to have them down completely at takeoff to ensure he isn't trapped in an aluminum jail cell) OK, well let's take off with stairs down. Here's another thing. And this isn't a dig at your support for Hahneman. But, believing that Cooper was Hahneman, you're naturally going to view things through that prism. So why would Cooper be so afraid of a refueling stop in America when 7 months later Hahneman is the one who requests a refueling stop in New Orleans? They weren't flying dirty when they left D.C. They could have easily made it to Honduras in that configuration from D.C. New Orleans really wasn't even a necessary stop to reach his DZ, yet HE is the one who asked for a refueling stop. Explain this incongruence and don't you dare say something about having some off the record knowledge that would explain this if we ONLY knew what you know.

What does Bayesian analysis have to do with this any of this? I think you’ve forgotten how this all started. I said Cooper may have been trying to jump back where he started. You asked me why would he want to do that. I responded: “Because that’s where his transportation was, either his own car or an accomplice, if we assume that he began his day in Portland.” How is that made up nonsense? How is it a “claim”? If we assume he started his day in Portland, what is “made up nonsense” about what I wrote?

The way your mind works lol

So me theorizing that his car was parked in the area where his flight took off from or that an accomplice was somewhere in the area where the flight took off from is MORE speculative than this: but, I believe/theorize 305 was not his primary target.. His primary target landed in Portland earlier that day probably UAL.. He aborted that one for some reason and selected 305. I wouldn't be surprised if he had luggage left on that first flight.

what is made up about him jumping in Portland? I'm trying to explain why he may have jumped in Portland i.e. that's where his car was (hello Robb Heady) or where his accomplice was waiting for him (hello McCoy).

Why wouldn't he have hijacked a plane closer to the Mexican border? That's my main issue with this theory.

happy? TinaSmokes.mp4

What on earth?? Cooper jumped in Clark County, Washington. That is an actual fact. I'm the one who has the fact based speculation here. Speculating about WHY he jumped WHERE he jumped is totally different from wondering why he DIDN'T jump somewhere he DIDN'T jump. You've taken one decision that Cooper made (going from asking for stairs lowered after takeoff to requesting stairs lowered at takeoff) and have spun it into an imaginative scenario. And I'm not here even arguing against because I think it actually may have some merit. Totally strange to accuse me of being MORE speculative than you when I'm speculating about WHY he jumped WHERE WE KNOW he jumped. You're compiling speculation (why did he change his mind on the stairs) upon speculation (why DIDN'T he jump further south). All of your deductions about how he was dressed and him looking Latin, reasonable though they are, are still wholly speculative. It's far, far more speculative than trying to figure out why he jumped where he DID jump.

In her 302 she indicates that he was still messing around with the bag AFTER they took off. If his goal was to jump immediately one would think he'd have been totally ready to go.

of course it's speculation. Literally everything you're suggesting about him being spooked about Reno is speculation as well. None of us know what was in Cooper's mind.

Because that’s where his transportation was, either his own car or an accomplice, if we assume that he began his day in Portland.

As you know, I'm not opposed to a theory that posits a later jump time. The prospect of having to stop in the states to refuel seems to have shaken him up a bit, and him having to improvise a new plan explains how haphazard he seemed to be in the later stages of the hijacking. Yet I do think it's logical and reasonable to assume that he wanted to jump back where he started. The only problem with that is that he didn't really create a scenario to where he could guarantee that they would be flying back over Portland. V23 and V27 were the only airways that headed south out of Seattle. V27 would be a pretty dangerous airway to risk them taking if you were wanting to jump near Portland. It hugs the coast and is sometimes over the water in that area around the Washington/Oregon border. I've never bought into a Seattle jump because Cooper wasn't ready to jump when they took off. Tina says he was still messing with the bag when they were taking off i.e. he wasn't ready yet. If he wanted to jump in Seattle, it's reasonable to think that he would have been totally situated when they took off. Regardless of where he wanted to jump, Cooper was certainly winging his DZ.