olemisscub

Getting rid of Cossey doesn't negate the possibility of Hayden's chute being an NB-6. He had a surplus military parachute. Most likely was an NB-6 or B-4. Hayden doesn't call the Pioneer a military chute, but he does call the Cooper chute a military type parachute. So that tells me that he thought of them differently, which means they likely looked different. I know you disagree, but at this point if we disregard Cossey completely, there is no higher a likelihood that it was some old WWII chute than a B-4 or NB-6. And of course the packing card carries more weight over Hayden. It even carried more weight for me when it was Hayden and Cossey against the packing card, which is a written record. I'm just not sold on your reasoning for WHY there is a discrepancy between 28 and 24.

Hayden sure seemed awfully concerned about them once they were gone. He shows up in the FBI files several times between 71 and 74 asking for his Pioneer back and talking about how its harness was really comfortable for him. So he did wear them inside his plane.

If Cossey is unreliable, then we shouldn’t take anything he says at any point EVER with a bit of credulity. Strike him from the record completely and what are we left with? Norman Hayden’s first description. So now you have to reconcile why Hayden thought it was a 28 footer. I know what size canopy are in my parachutes that I own. Why wouldn’t he?

Meh, we both know that the media, and the FBI themselves on occasion, get mixed up with the packed/owned/supplied verbiage. And it's not really worth nothing that the dummy is appearing in that first round of publications on the 26th given that we have that document where the AP person calls to fact check about the dummy chute after speaking to Cossey on the 25th. The FBI's response to that query and their sudden urgency to speak to Cossey after learning of it makes me think the FBI didn't know anything about the dummy chute until that reporter called them.

I think I may have finally figured out my main issue with your premise and why my brain is struggling to follow you on this. Cossey couldn't shut up about this thing back in 71 to the media. As much as he liked to insert himself into the story, don't you think that he'd mention them being his parachutes or, at the very least, tell them about receiving the call that night? I feel like such a thing would have ended up in the paper. In other words, if he was actually called that night, it would have shown up in those early papers. The reporters wouldn't just leave that out of their story, so it's doubtful he told them about it. This makes me think it never happened. Him receiving a call from the FBI that night isn't documented anywhere in the FBI files (I ask why?) and Cossey doesn't mention it until 2003 (again, I ask why?). Why isn't he mentioned anywhere in this sequence?

So he's able to describe HIS dummy chute in detail....without knowing he's describing HIS dummy chute? How does that work exactly?

Cool. What about the Oregonian morning edition?

He has eyeballs. If the person describing the rig knew it was a dummy, they'd have described it as such. The FBI doesn't learn that one was a dummy until a reporter tells them that Cossey told him that. So Cossey fully describes his fronts in this mystery statement, but DOESN'T provide the detail that it was a dummy, but then DOES tell a reporter that it's a dummy?

OK, so to believe this, all of us have to believe that 1) Cossey gave a description BEFORE they wrote that they tried calling him all night. 2) That his description did NOT include the fact that one was a dummy. So Cossey gives this undocumented description, doesn't describe it as a dummy, then two days later decides it's time to describe it being a dummy. Got it.

Nope. Wrongo,, it is NOT a critical piece of evidence. It isn't needed at all actually. As vigorous as you've been arguing about it, then it sure seems like you cared about it as evidence. Emrich didn't even know he sent Cossey's dummy chute. No proof that chest chute description came from him. That chest chute description not mentioning that one was a dummy leads MORE credence to Emrich being the supplier. Again, I'm not even sure why this particular issue is still being discussed. The person WRITING the document says that at 6am "We've been trying to contact Cossey all night." So we're to believe that the guy writing the document somehow doesn't know about this lengthy six page document that was just sent off to the FBI director that has a detailed "Cossey" description in it? These guys were all on the same floor of the Seattle Office and were working together on this. That's a silly notion to continue thinking that this chest chute description came from Cossey. Cossey claimed he was contacted well before that in the evening. Unconfirmed of course.. so it is still plausible. Fruit of the poisonous tree. I don't care what Cossey says in statements from 2003 or 2008. He's saying he was contacted by the FBI that night as PART of his bullshit story that he sent his own chutes from his house, THUS, him saying they contacted him while the hijacking was still occurring is almost certainly bullshit too. NOTHING in the documents prove Cossey was not contacted and gave the rig description before the aerobatic comments during the in person interview on the 26th... NADDA And there is NOTHING in the documents that proves that Santa Claus wasn't on the plane that night either. Nothing in the documents that proves that "24 feet" wasn't a scriveners error. NADDA. See how goofy this is? I could do that same weak argument. You're better than that. It is, in fact absurd that he wasn't contacted before the in person interview.. how does he arrange the in person interview. lol, of course he was. Just on the 26th after they sent two agents after him! How does that have any bearing on your argument? Maybe, Cossey gave his chute description during the interview but before Hayden was brought up by the agents.. maybe during the phone call before he went to the interview,,, You have no idea what happened.. Maybe Andy Anderson was D.B. Cooper? Maybe Tina and Anderson were lovers? You have no idea what happened. These documents do not prove what you claim they do... PERIOD. Well they for DAMN SURE do not prove what you are claiming they do. You get lots of things wrong But you don't, clearly. You have no other better explanation that fits.. Go ahead make one up... I don't have to. I don't have an explanation for Tena Bar. Does that mean that one of your theories about Tena Bar is defacto correct just because I don't have an explanation? No. That's what Ulis does whenever someone challenges him on his WFP burial scenario. "Since you can't come up with an explanation, then mine is the correct one by default." You present NO explanation.. Again, I don't have to present an explanation to have an opinion about YOUR explanation. but try to trash mine with irrelevancies and bogus claims. You've been presenting as evidence for days: Cossey says he was called the night of the hijacking - you got that from a 2003 interview where it's part of a known lie. Cossey gave an undocumented interview to the FBI about the backchutes where he thought they were his but this happened BEFORE he spoke to the media on the 25th - we have a document from the 26th where agents are pissed that the media has talked to Cossey but they haven't. Again, these agents are working TOGETHER. If there was a prior interview, they wouldn't have been so intent on going after him. Cossey was the only one who could have supplied the description of the backchutes - they write that no one has answered Cossey's phone all night an hour AFTER firing off a six page letter containing a full description of the backchutes ergo Cossey didn't give that description contained in that letter. This isn't peer review, I spent years saying things that everyone disagreed with or just didn't grasp that were ultimately accepted years later. So you're batting .1000 in your mind? Every opinion you have is the truth? Every explanation you have for something is correct? These are theories. Theories are meant to be attacked. They are meant to see if they can hold up to scrutiny. I find this theory of yours lacking because I'm able to attack it with case evidence. and for 50 plus years everyone has believed as a fact that Cooper used an NB6, 28' flat circular... well he most likely didn't. If people still believe it, that is their problem. Nope. I've changed my mind. I think the packing card said 26 and the guy wrote 24. I mean, were you there? How do you really know the agent didn't have a brain fart when hand writing that 302 from Girolamo? Maybe he was thinking of his girlfriend at the time and if she was mad he was missing their anniversary dinner they had planned that night. Maybe his wife was about to have a baby. Maybe he had the runs and couldn't concentrate. Maybe the lady who typed it was daydreaming about Steve McQueen. Maybe it was her first day and she hit the wrong key because she was nervous. You weren't there. You have no idea what happened. So honestly, we really shouldn't believe anything written in the FBI Files.

It’s not irrelevant. Not even a little. You’re using it to support your argument that Cossey gave some earlier undocumented statement describing his own parachute before his Nov 26th statement. You need for this alleged undocumented statement to come BEFORE he told the papers that the chute came from Hayden on the 25th. If Cossey’s first statement to the FBI actually came AFTER when he talked to the media guys, then your explanation can’t work. So to bolster this claim, you’re using as evidence the fact that we have a very early chute description. This is why you are insisting that it has to come from Cossey. If it is shown to come from another person then your argument is weakened. And that’s really the sole reason that I disagree with your explanation. I truly think that what we see in the evidence is correct: Cossey’s first statement was on Nov 26th. And why would I care if it wasn’t? I want this story told right, I don’t care WHO is right. This isn’t a contest for me. If you showed me evidence that would convince me of something, then I’d believe it. And it’s nothing against you. You’ve had other theories that have convinced me, but this is like a peer review process. I can follow you on some of your other theories but not on this one because I’m finding myself able to poke holes in it. So it’s not irrelevant that those chest descriptions didn’t come from Cossey. It’s disproving a critical piece of evidence that you’ve presented to support your claim. Your other piece of evidence I can also attack. For everyone out there, remember, Fly is arguing that we have evidence of an undocumented Cossey statement because of the front pack descriptions (which I've now shown couldn't have come from Cossey), but he's also using as evidence of an undocumented statement the appearance of "flat circular" appearing in a Nov 25th 302. You’re suggesting only Cossey could make such a statement. I feel pretty strongly I can make that less likely as well. We've got this statement where the FBI is saying they tried all day of the 25th to talk to Cossey up until they quit trying at 3:30 and that now, on the morning of the 26th, they are assigning a lead to special agents to contact Cossey. Ok, so when is the first time "flat circular" shows up in the FBI Files? Well, it's on a document that was written and then first sent out at 4:25 pm on the 25th. So if we go by the standard English language reading of these documents then that means that this undocumented mystery statement took place between 3:30 pm and 4:25 pm when this document was first sent. And also for this to be evidence of your argument means that we have to believe that the ONLY thing they added to Hayden's description after Cossey's undocumented statement was "flat circular military type." Because that's the only difference in this and Hayden's description. In addition to this undocumented statement having to occur in this narrow window and for it to have been such a low value statement that it only merited adding "flat circular" to Hayden's description, we're also having to believe that the FBI were so intent on getting a statement from Cossey that they assigned two special agents to track him down DESPITE having already talked to him and just not documenting it for some reason. I'm just not convinced that there is ANY evidence whatsoever to make an implication that Cossey 1) spoke to the FBI before he made his "these were Hayden's chutes" statements on the Nov 25th, and 2) that he ever believed that his personal backpacks were on that plane. Believe what you want, that's fine, but to me this just means that there is another explanation for the discrepancy between Cossey/Hayden and what the packing card says. Hell, Cossey's NB-6 statement could indeed be completely full of shit for all I know, but I don't believe it's for the reason that you are saying because I see nothing anywhere that makes me think Cossey ever gave a statement to the FBI at a time when he thought these were his parachutes he was describing.

Oh? First front chute description shows up in a fully written six page document that is sent to the Director at 5:10 AM then Portland at 5:57 AM on Nov 25th. Please don’t try to spin this with more “well we don’t if someone did or didn’t talk to him before”. Just concede this point and move on. This description of the front chutes didn’t come from Cossey.

Emrich. He’s the one who actually grabbed the front chutes. And we know the FBI were speaking to him in the early AM of the 25th.

Speculation is fine when we are absent case evidence, but we’re not absent case evidence on this issue with Cossey talking to the FBI or thinking that it was HIS chute. It’s quite obvious from reading the plain English that Farrell is bitching about how they can’t get a hold of Cossey but the media can. If they had spoken to Cossey they’d have mentioned it and would have used the term “re-contact”. Yes, there is an inconsistency with the canopy size between what Hayden AND Cossey believed was in that thing and what that packing card says. You think you have figured it out. That’s fine. But you’ve not convinced me of your explanation for that inconsistency. I’ve changed my opinions on this case MANY times if I’m convinced of something. You yourself have convinced me of things so it’s not some slight toward you. I’m simply not following you here. We clearly disagree. Not worth us continuing to litigate this. And I don’t know enough about the flight path to debate Cunningham about it. But when it has been discussed between us on a show or whatever I will clearly express my view that I think he is moving it too far south. And how often do I talk about Skip? I don’t think he was Cooper but there isn’t a ton to attack him on as far as what I’m looking for with Cooper. His nose doesn’t strike me as what I think Cooper’s nose was, but that’s about it.

Sure, it's weird. But what do you think it is a red flag OF, exactly?

It isn't rank speculation.. it fits the evidence. It's still speculation. You can't provide any actual proof from the case files that Cossey thought he was describing his parachute, so you're speculating. because an agent was unable to contact Cossey on the 25th before 3:30 doesn't mean another person didn't or the evening before.. MORE speculation. This was Charlie Farrell's case. If someone talked to Cossey at any point he'd have been told. Instead, Farrell writes a document bitching about how no one has been in contact with Cossey. Even if you don't want to accept it. You still can't reconcile the descriptions.. you can't do it. I'm not TRYING to reconcile the descriptions, you are the one doing that. I'm MERELY saying that your argument that Cossey is describing HIS parachutes to the FBI a day after he told the media they were Hayden's is bizarre. Especially when his first documented statement to the FBI has the description coming AFTER the story of where they came from. I know you won't budge on this, but everyone else will see this. Hey everyone reading this: this isn't complicated. This is the first time Cossey is documented talking to the FBI. On what planet can anyone read this and think Cossey is describing HIS personal parachute?

This simply isn't complicated. The first time NB-6 enters the lexicon is later in the afternoon on November 26th, a full day AFTER he has told the media that they came from Hayden. You cannot make your case that Cossey thought they were his backpacks and thus gave an erroneous "NB-6 statement" without rank speculation. Actual case documents and media from 1971 do not support your contention. If Cossey had spoken to them at any time, then it would have been documented. As it is, we have multiple documents saying "where the fuck is this guy?" Nothing about "re-contacting Cossey".

That description had to have come from Emrich, whom we know they were able to get in touch with on the 25th. Ok, Fly, for the love of all that is good and holy in the Vortex, you gotta, for once in a Cooper debate, give me the W on this one. This couldn’t be any more clear. The FBI didn’t talk to Cossey until the 26th. They are very obviously pissed that they’ve been unable to speak to him despite the news media being able to

let’s really break this down. That 11-25-71 4:53 PM NITEL description looks like a bad conflation of Hayden’s earlier descriptions. The only phrase missing from this conflated description that wasn’t explicitly in Hayden’s first description is “flat circular.” Everything else is Hayden. “Olive drab”, “civilian luxury type”, etc. All Hayden. Where is “NB-6” or “Sage green” or a description of the dummy chute? This bonkers document is describing the recovered chest pack as being the missing chest pack. I don’t see anything in this document that indicates that it had to come from Cossey. Quite the opposite, actually. Then we have what I believe is Cossey’s ACTUAL first statement to the FBI being reported as 6:22 PM on 11/26/71. This is the first time in the files that we see Cossey’s terms used to describe the backpack like “NB-6”, “non-steerable”, “nylon” “Sage green”, “no d-rings”. If they had spoken to him earlier then at least a few of those terms should be showing up in the descriptions from the 25th. It’s also the first time we learn about the dummy chute. If they had interviewed Cossey earlier, they would have had a clearer picture of the chest packs and would have known about the dummy chute already.

Well but we know that isn't true because on AM of the 25th they were still looking for Cossey for the first time.

The Girolamo 302 was butchered somewhere. Agent took crappy notes or something was lost in transcription. I doubt that Pioneer OR Conical are references to the Cooper chute. Also, "conical type commercial parachute" sounds like someone describing the museum chute. It's not like "commercial parachute" would be written on a packing card anywhere. Girolamo, being military, probably didn't recognize the museum chute as being some old military rig because of its color and also the modern harness.

If the provenance of that additional packing card could not be demonstrated (which is my entire argument), then Cossey's description and Hayden's description (which match) would have heavy evidentiary value as they are both primary sources. My issue with your thesis is that it would have done Cossey no harm to be like "my bad, I thought it was my chute yesterday when we first spoke. Now that I know it's the one I made for Hayden, here is the correct description." Cossey would have had no reason to obfuscate the truth here. Why? Because he was embarrassed over a mistake? Nah. I imagine Cossey, like most people, thought this stuff (and Cooper) would be picked up rather quickly. So it would have served him no purpose to turn a mistake into a 30 year lie that might be exposed at any time.

This is what I’m thinking. Both packing cards seem to have the same data set on them. This makes sense because Cossey was assembling these from scratch, thus they’d have new packing cards. We can see on the museum card that Cossey was indeed using a new card. I think it’s reasonable to think that both cards are the same type of card.

Hayden isn’t irrelevant at all. If you have two different people saying the same thing, then that should at least keep us open to the possibility, though perhaps slim, that the 24 foot card isn’t from Cooper’s chute and has some other weird explanation. And really, Hayden’s description is not only relevant, it may be more relevant than Cossey’s since he had the things in his possession hours earlier. Plus, you can doubt the veracity of Cossey’s claims, but we know for 100% certainty that other information Hayden provided was accurate.

lol, holy smokes. Robert. I OWN three bailout rigs. Two NB-6's and a B-4. I know what packing cards are. I know that each parachute should only have one. I know that each time they are repacked they are filled out by the rigger and certified. I know what they look like. I have a YouTube video showing off a packing card that I have signed by Earl Cossey. Try to keep up :-)