olemisscub

Hardly. In one instance the sketch artist used KK5-1 as a template with real-time assistance from the stews. In another instance he uses KK5-1 without real-time assistance relying only on Flo's words from Nov 71.

Bill says that his name was called first at the roll call on the bus. He said Cooper's name came second. Important to keep in mind that the roll call on the bus was ONLY of the passengers who boarded in Portland as provided to the FBI by Northwest at PDX. An argument could be made that if Mitchell's name was first and Cooper's was second on this manifest, that this is the order that the names were in when the boarding passes were handed over to the FBI. Think of it like this: Williams is collecting boarding passes. The last person to hand him a boarding pass will likely have their boarding pass on the top of the pile. It could be a coincidence that their names were back to back like that, but it could also indicate that Mitchell was last to board with Cooper second to last.

This is not even an opinion though. This is a DEMONSTRABLE FACT. I don't have anything mixed up. You aren't going to wiggle out of this. You're also pivoting. I already agreed that Flo was emotional. That's not what we're arguing. You're claiming that she had a reduced role in Comp B and that Mitchell had an increased role based SOLELY on what someone in the 2000's told Galen Cook. That is literally hearsay. I have MULTIPLE original source documents that blatantly contradict this. It doesn't matter if it makes sense to us or not or what we would have done. We have documentation stating what the FBI DID IN FACT DO. Hearsay from the 2000's NOR our opinions about what we would have done is totally irrelevant when we have literal facts presented in front of us. This isn't complicated at all. And the REASON why Comp A looks so different from Comp B is that the sketch artist WASN'T SITTING THERE with the girls this time. Rose received a photo of KK5-1 that the Seattle office attached in a memo along with the adjustments Flo wanted to make to KK5-1. So Rose made adjustments to KK5-1, apparently forgetting that he had ALREADY DONE THIS to KK5-1 back in Nov 71. Comp A already is KK5-1 with the adjustments. When he created Comp B he didn't have the girls with him directing him on the PRECISE changes. So he just took Flo's WORDS about KK5-1 and modified KK5-1. This is why they look different. It's not a mystery as to why they look so different. The issue with the sketches is human memory. They think Comp A looks great in Nov 71 and then by Nov 72 they think Comp B (a completely differently looking human) also looks great.

Again, show me a SINGLE FBI DOCUMENT that even hints at what you are claiming. You. Cannot. Do. It. And Galen absolutely had a sketch bias. Gossett was his suspect. Gossett is OBVIOUSLY a Comp B suspect. Yeah man, this is some INTENSE increased input by Bill....this is the GRAND TOTAL of what you'll find from Bill on Comp B within the files. But keep appealing to the existence of files none of us have ever seen to save your position.

Hyperbolic? We literally have an FBI document from the DIRECTOR OF THE FBI'S OFFICE stating "Here is the new sketch. Here is how it was created." I swear debating with you is like living in some bizarro world. You simply REFUSE to admit you're wrong regardless of what evidence is presented before you. Even in spite of me presenting a plain English document stating HOW COMP B WAS CREATED you won't acknowledge it and will just say "well, we don't have all the files..." This isn't like the Benzedrine example. That is something that ISN'T in the files. This IS in the files. A hearsay statement allegedly given by an FBI agent in the 2000's CANNOT trump an original source document that is stating as plain as day the COMPLETE OPPOSITE. Frankly, if you continue to argue this point that Comp B came from Bill Mitchell instead of Flo Schaffner then its a demonstration of some psychological defect on your part where you simply cannot give an inch after you've stated a position on something.

And you trust him more than the FBI themselves apparently. Even if an FBI agent said something in the 2000’s, if it’s directly contradicted by what the Bureau ACTUALLY DID back in 1971 and 1972, then it’s irrelevant. We have the files now for the sketches. There isn’t some secret vault that contains sketch info. That isn’t how this works. The files that document how the sketches were ACTUALLY made directly contradict what Galen claims this FBI agent said, so it’s irrelevant. They didn’t prioritize Mitchell over Schaffner. That’s an actual documented fact. It isn’t an opinion. What an FBI agent MAY have said in the 2000’s is irrelevant. It’s like waving around a statement from an FBI agent who told someone that JFK was President in 1985. Demonstrably inaccurate statements are irrelevant.

This is an obnoxious argument and someone who knows the files should be ashamed to argue that Flo wasn't given credibility by the FBI. We literally HAVE the look of what became the final Comp B in large part because of Flo's comments on the Hoodlum. They clearly followed her adjustment suggestions.

You got it elsewhere? This is PRECISELY what I was just complaining about with you. It's like you can't help yourself. Rinse and repeat. You get called out on something and are asked to show receipts, but instead of conceding the point you hide behind the veil of privileged knowledge. It's a bullshit tactic to try and save face and you do it repeatedly. So yes, let us all trust your and Galen's hearsay (or fiction) over actual source documentation. No thanks. Additionally, this balderdash bullshit about the FBI relying more heavily on Mitchell over Flo for Comp B is laughable. We literally have them saying to NOT do that during the creation of Comp B: Furthermore, we know the sequence of events for the creation of Comp B. For all of the Comp B's we know when they were reviewed by the witnesses and we know that the passengers came before the stews. We have a file where they explicitly say to show it to the passengers first so their adjustments weren't the final product. They wanted the stews to be able to make the final adjustments. And we know that they did in fact do this because we have the exact dates when these witnesses were consulted. And the passengers were consulted first, not because they were more reliable, but because the FBI CLEARLY valued the stewardesses more and thus didn't want any of the passenger critiques to have more value than those of the stews. And sure, we all know Flo was shaken up, but that doesn't mean her testimony would be given less weight than a college kid sitting across the aisle who had no actual reason to commit anything to memory. Flo was the only person who interacted with Cooper extensively on multiple occasions before he became the hijacker. She also interacted with him multiple occasions after he became the hijacker. They clearly valued her input because KK5-1 became the foundation for every Cooper sketch. They also went back to her for every sketch and also for suspect photo reviews as late as 2011 with L.D. Cooper. I have no idea where Galen came up with this, but IF an FBI agent in the 20th century said such a thing, then that was his opinion and not something derived from the files. The files DEMONSTRABLY demonstrate that Galen's claim is untrue. This is the delightful thing about the files being released. People aren't allowed anymore to just willy nilly say shit to bolster their pet suspect or agenda. We have receipts now.

Show me proof within the files where they say Flo isn’t as reliable as another witness because of her emotional state. You can’t do it. You are simply parroting something Bruce wrote in his book that Galen Cook CLAIMED an FBI agent told him. Why would an FBI agent even tell HIM that? Which FBI agent? When? In fact, we have documentation that suggests quite the opposite. Comp B (and Comp A) is based on KK5-1, which Flo picked out. The framework for the entire bloody sketch itself came from Flo. So clearly they had no problems relying on her. You made a declarative statement. You said the FBI clearly didn’t think Flo was reliable. Show me anywhere where the FBI say anything at all about Florence Schaffner’s reliability. You can’t. I know the files as well as you do. It’s not in there.

Says who? This is incorrect.

Yes, I think we all understand why it'd be smart for him to try and board first, but he didn't. And Mike's version doesn't mesh with Cooper's MO: blending in. Wandering out onto the tarmac where a passenger IS NOT supposed to be is a really bad way to draw unwanted attention to yourself. I can't see it. And Flo provides details about seeing Cooper for the first time in her 302. She saw him walking across the tarmac and says she greeted him, checked his ticket, and he was second to last to board. Highly unlikely she'd have had this awkward interaction with him where she sent him back to the terminal and completely forget it just 4 hours later.

There was construction that day at the terminal and 305 couldn't hook up to a jetway at that gate, thus why they had to board up the aft stairs. When it was time to board, they cued up and once they gave their ticket to Williams they walked down a walkway that led to a door which opened up to the tarmac. They then walked a short distance to where Flo was standing at the bottom of the stairs checking their boarding passes. So Mike's scenario doesn't really work in that scenario. That would require Cooper to somehow be OUTSIDE before any other passengers. It's highly unlikely that Williams would have let anyone just walk down the gate ramp and out onto the runway. So I don't see how Cooper gets out there for this interaction to take place and then ends up back into the terminal in the regular cue. Second, that would not have been an interaction that a stew would have forgotten once they realized he was the hijacker and certainly would have ended up being part of their narrative during their testimony. So much has gotten mixed up in the intervening years. For example, many passengers, including Michael Cooper, thought Al Lee was FBI because you'll see them say in interviews that there were FBI agents down by the plane. In hindsight that was a reasonable deduction on their part but it wasn't true. Larry Finegold got something very mixed up and it ended up in Bruce's book and caused a whole bunch of confusion. Larry told Bruce that an FBI agent he knew (Larry was a US attorney, famously) came ONTO THE PLANE and they exchanged a laugh with each other. Well, we know that's not true because there is actual video footage and a photograph of Larry running into this agent he knew (it was Don Steele according to Detlor) and this interaction happened when Larry entered the terminal with the other passengers. You can see Larry in the footage smiling and nodding his head at an agent. So that's a very clear of example of something occurring but being misremembered. I suspect that what Michael Cooper probably saw Hal Williams coming outside to ask Flo if they were ready to let passengers onboard yet. As I said, it was a bit of an ad hoc arrangement due to the gate construction, so as the gate agent Hal would have needed to go outside and talk to someone from the crew at some point. I bet that interaction between Flo and Hal somehow over the decades morphed into this being Cooper. This story doesn't appear until an interview Mike gave in the 2000's. So it's not that these people are inventing things out of whole cloth, but just conflating and misremembering. Although sometimes they absolutely embellish, such as Finegold stating in a media interview in the late 70's that he got a really good look at Cooper and that his law enforcement training as a prosecutor gave him the chops to really take note of the man's appearance. Well, of course, we have Finegold's 302 and he says he never saw the hijacker a single time. Jack Almstad claiming that he cracked a joke with Tina and Cooper while waiting in the aisle for the lavatory doesn't ring particularly true with me either.

Mike also gave a very lengthy interview to his hometown paper about two days later. He never saw Cooper.

Don't see any reason not to trust Flo's memory on that considering that she gave this info to the FBI about five hours after the incident. Gregory claims to have been the last to board but I've also heard Bill say that he was last. Not that it's relevant whatsoever. What's interesting to me is that one would think Cooper should have been among the first to board in Portland so he'd have the best choice of seat. Curious what he would have done if the back rows were already occupied when he boarded.

The wonderful thing about the 302's is we can see which passengers made later embellishments (I'm looking at you Mike Cooper, Larry Feingold, and Jack Almstad). If Cooper had tried to board the plane before any of the other passengers, Flo/Tina/Alice would have remembered that.

Not a double standard because you seemingly only do this when defending your position in a debate. It’s the Appeal to Privileged Knowledge fallacy. I’m not using this researcher’s privilege to bolster my side in an argument. It’s not a double standard. If I claimed that I can’t share something that would prove my side of a debate is correct, then the two would be analogous.

It’s actually two. Flo said Cooper “appeared to be of Latin descent” just after getting off the plane to the FBI. She’s the only individual who locked eyes with Cooper. Not sure it makes a difference but Flo is mixed race herself. Gregory is the one who said 1/4 Mexican or 1/4 Native American. Their statements, combined with the fact that 9 of the 10 witnesses used the terms “dark” “swarthy” or “olive”, leads me to think a good Cooper suspect more likely than not needs to have some sort of obviously dark complexion that could make our best eyewitness (imo) say that he looked Latin while the plane was still out on the runway at SeaTac (very fresh memory)

I actually have the answer to this question about the light straight from the source but it’s in my book, so I’ll have to be guilty of doing the old “Flyjack Special” on this one haha

Just a random suspect who was eliminated. There are literally 1000 of these guys in the files haha. but even eliminated suspects can sometimes give us insights into Cooper’s possible appearance due to what the witnesses have to say about photographs of the suspects and what parts of the suspect’s face remind them of Cooper.

I can’t recall him saying anything like that. he did say in the 2016 documentary that he had something in his pocket that he could use to snuff out the real Cooper. It was a while back when I asked him about that privately and if I’m not mistaken it was essentially going to be “tell me about the drink you had on the plane.” Basically nobody (at least before the FBI files and Skyjack) other than Cooper and Bill would know that Cooper spilled his drink. .

I was being hyperbolic. We've had some horrifyingly bad ones. And yes I see what you see with Murphy and Bill. I won't deny that.

You realize his eyebrows are raised in both photos? You may even be correct that his are extreme, but it’s amusing to me that you’ll apply such critical analysis of another suspect but not to your own suspect, who from my perspective is almost as bad of a match to the Cooper descriptions as Reca. Literally the only thing H has that matches the Cooper description is his skin tone and perhaps some aspects of his hair.

You better not be going down the Reca grift path of claiming that this mentally deranged loser was actually some super stud CIA asset.

FWIW, I find Hahneman’s hijacking to be the most entertaining in retrospect. They apparently served drinks throughout the event to keep passengers calm and you’d swear that some of them were dead drunk by what they were doing onboard and what they said to the media afterward. One of my favorites is a passenger asking the President of Eastern Airlines, former astronaut Frank Borman, to autograph his boarding pass once he got off the plane and recognized him in the terminal.

That will sadly never happen. It’s too bad though. He has no reason to be so shy. I mean, to not even go on Darren’s show is pretty wild. Although Georger never has either. I think he and Georger are the only two longtime Cooperites who haven’t.