ZigZagMarquis

I'm certain the NTSB does. I doubt most of us need to see anything further. I'd like to. If for no other reason then to know for myself whether this "the tail broke off before impact" is fact of fiction. However, if the tail did break off before impact (which I doubt it did... my own personal WAG) "something else" happened first... airplanes very very rarely, if ever, just "fall apart" in steady level flight... something else happens first.

Does anyone have any more (better) pictures then the one in the afore mentioned link?

Cessna 172 Cessna 182 Cessna 206 Cessna 208 Caravan Cessna 411 DHC-6 Twin Otter D-18 King Air A-90 Shorts Sky Van DC-3 Casa PAC750XL C-121 Bell Jet Ranger Hot Air Balloon

What!!?? No pictures posted yet of this past weekend's Chick's Rock boogie? ... or are they in a different forum / thread?? I was hoping for another picture of Hansen sucking on a Coors that I could give him shit about!

hmmmm... maybe we need another Poll: Should Skymama be allowed to marry a whuffo? At least you won't have to worry about him wanting to split and goto the DZ every weekend as opposed to doing chores around the house... or do the whole hosehold budget in terms of "jump tickets"...

Has the rumor'ed Skymama Wedding happened yet? She didn't marry a whuffo? Did she? If so, did she get a permission slip signed by her local S&TA?

I do the same thing with ever space ball I make... except its not my name or phone number I write on it...

Take a read through this... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2917979;search_string=Stiletto;#2917979 ... thread. Although its a urban legend the "old" Stiletto's were trimed different then "new" ones... PD swears up and down that is not the case.

BUMP!

Haven't you heard? Sun Path. Great Products. Lousy Customer Service.

An Error!!?? In an FAA Document!! No way!!!

Mark, Let me throw out a few things for you to consider... 1) Sure, I've seen folks land canopies with broken lines. Some didn't even know they had a broken line until they went to gather up their canopy and/or until they want to pack it. Some knew they had a broken line (lines) after opening and decided to land it anyways. Most landed just fine... while I've also seen others land a canopy with broken lines hammer in like they jumped off a 10' ladder. 2) A buddy of mine once got open and found a he had a couple of broken A-Lines near the center of the canopy. He decided to do a controllability check and see if he could land it. Right Turn, Left Turn both went fine, but when he did a practice flare, still up high, the canopy tried to pack itself again and he opted at that point to cutaway and pull his reserve... it ended up being an uneventful reserve ride and landing from there. The point to take away here... Just because the canopy has a broken line or two, still remains inflated and turns doesn't mean it will flare and set you on the ground nicely... when you really go to flare near the ground isn't the time to learn that. Something that goes with that is you may or may not want to dick around trying to figure that out up high, depends on a lot of factors, only to find out you wasted the time you did have doing that when you could have cutaway and deployed your reserve. OBTW... if you (or any up-jumper reading this) doesn't know which are the A,B,C & D-Lines on their canopy... their job is to find a rigger or an experienced jumper at the DZ the next time they're there to hang a canopy up and explain it... and then go buy beer. 3) You question is an age old one in skydiving. It has been discussed many times. As you may be beginning to gather, it "depends" on things such as, how many lines, which lines, and what type of canopy, to name a few... other things could also be your experience level and weather conditions. Which brings me to something my instructor, Ron, said way way back when I went through FJC... when going over malfunctions and emergency procedures was that rather then go through a dissertation of how many lines can be broken, which lines, if its these - its okay, could be 2 or e, if its those - this is bad if its even just 1... if you have broken lines, cutaway and go to your reserve; caveat, that was one instructors opinion in a FJC dealing with 1st time jumpers. 4) Personally, good, bad, right or wrong, my "plan" is if on opening I look up and get a face full of spaghetti and conclude "broken lines" is to cutaway and deploy my reserve rather then start counting numbers of broken lines. Especially if it was a hard opening and there may be addition damage not immediately noticed. Having said that though, if I did decide to hang onto it and see if it was landable, the FIRST thing I would do is a practice flare and if that didn't go well, I'd get rid of it. 5) Remember... "When In Doubt, Whip It Out" ... edit ... Another good rule to live by... 6) Never ever try to do rigging under canopy.

Robert, You're not saying you have a collection of cutaway mains, freebags & handles dating back 35 years? You gave the stuff back that you found, right? Don't laugh, all, I jumped at a DZ years ago that lost an anthropomorphic dummy and rig that went way off spot on a test drop that some passer by saw come down, loaded it up and took off with it because they thought it would be "cool to have". The items were later found by a Sheriff going from residence to residence in the area asking if anyone had seen it.

Bill, I whole heartedly agree... to the point even that on many "normal" (12.5) jump runs its rare, if ever, another skydiver can "take control" and diffuse a situation going bad. I think we have all been on enough jump runs where right around the time the green light is getting ready to go on or has just gone on and what starts as"confusion" or "a difference of opinion" over the spot... who should spot... the exit order... its cold, don't open the door yet... etc.... spirals out of control, resulting in not-so-nice words being exchanged. Much to my embarasment, shame and sorrow, I've been on the "wrong" side of this more times then I care to think about. I'd pose, the key is to have a plan, have a good plan, have good equipment and stick to the plan. Changing plans mear moments before exit, unless it is truely a matter of life or death, rarely works out well.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,300675,00.html Family, Friends Mourn 10 Skydivers Killed in Washington Plane Crash Wednesday, October 10, 2007 WHITE PASS, Wash. — Ryan Shipley smiled numbly as he reflected on the lives of 10 members of the skydiving group he regarded as family. Pilot Phil Kibler was the down-to-earth, reliable guy everyone could count on. Jeff Ross teased and played with all the kids. Hollie Rasberry, new to the group, had just gotten her license and threw herself into being part of the skydiving family. Most either studied or worked for family businesses or Microsoft. Still others found dream jobs in skydiving, rigging and packing parachutes. All 10 were fun, adventurous people — and all 10 perished when their airplane nose-dived in central Washington's rugged Cascade Mountains. The group had been traveling home from a weekend skydiving trip in Idaho. Shipley, a 32-year-old skydiver, said he had traveled with all those who crashed Sunday evening. "So much undone," Shipley said about his 10 pals from Skydive Snohomish, a company that runs a training school and skydiving flights in Snohomish County. "I want my friends back." Searchers combing through the plane's wreckage Tuesday found the last three victims. Seven bodies had been found Monday night after the crash site was located, said Nisha Marvel, spokeswoman for the state Department of Transportation's aviation division. "It was a pretty extensive crash site," Marvel said. "The aircraft was in pieces. It's rough, rugged terrain, and it took about 35 volunteers to comb that recovery area today to find the remaining passengers that had died in the crash." The debris at the remote site indicated the Cessna Caravan 208 crashed after a steep nosedive, Yakima County Sheriff Ken Irwin said. Mike Robertson, an aviation safety inspector for the Federal Aviation Administration, said there wasn't an explosion or fire and the plane was found in one spot. Robertson refused to speculate on a cause for the crash or whether weather could have been a factor. "We have radar information that shows the rapid descent but other than that we have really no hard evidence as to what caused it," Marvel said. Robertson said Tuesday's focus was on removing the bodies, and that investigators will turn their attention to the aircraft on Wednesday. Fighting back tears, Kelly Craig, whose 30-year-old brother Casey died in the crash, said the skydivers had made many jumps over the weekend. He doubted they would have been prepared for an emergency jump, with their parachutes at the ready, on the long flight back. The plane crashed just east of the crest of the Cascades, about five miles south of White Pass and on the edge of the Goat Rocks Wilderness, said Wayne Frudd of Yakima County Search and Rescue. A hunter in the crash area had alerted authorities Sunday night that a plane might have been in trouble. Tom Peterson of the state Department of Transportation said the hunter saw the aircraft's lights, and "thought the engine sounded like it was working really hard and whining loudly, and then silence after that." Searchers found the wreckage Monday night after following the scent of fuel to the crash site. Family, friends and officials said the victims were Casey Craig, of Bothell; Rasberry, 24, of Bellingham; Michelle Barker, 22, of Kirkland; Landon Atkin, 20, of Snohomish; Ross, 28, of Snohomish; Cecil Elsner, 20, of Lake Stevens; Andrew Smith, 20, of Lake Stevens; Bryan Jones, 34, of Redmond; Ralph Abdo, whose age and hometown were unavailable; and Kibler, 46, of the Seattle area.

Didn't mean to say you did, Bill. Sorry, but... et all... I've been mulling this over in my head the last day or so after reading Tom's original and then the info he followed up with in a post later (up thread). Outside of skydiving, I've been aware of it being "okay" for folks who own a priviate aircraft (operating under Part 91) to "share the cost" of a trip in their airplane with others... for example, I own a C172 and hold a Private Pilot's License. A couple of buddies and I decide it would be fun to fly from Inyokern, CA to Tahoe for the weekend. We jump in my plane Friday, fly up to Tahoe, come back Sunday, split the cost equally for the fuel and tie-down fees and, the way I understand things, we're "okay". Someone more versed in this, please correct me if I'm wrong. Now with respect toskydiving and specifically with respect to the Washington crash... I've read through Tom's OP a couple of times and also through the attachments he later posted and am trying to puzzle out for myself whether or not the folks involved are going to get themselves in a crack or not here with the FAA with there having been passengers onboard? Maybe we don't want to discuss it here??

*confused* ... but with respect to the Washington crash over the weekend... I thought I read that the seats & seat belts were in the aircraft when the incident took place? I'm not sure if this is accurate or if I mis-read something?

Thanks. From that and from the TFR also on the FAA's website... http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_7_9470.html ------ FDC 7/9470 ZSE WA.. FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS WHITE PASS. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. PURSUANT TO14 CFR SECTION 91.137(A)(2) TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS AREIN EFFECT WITHIN A 5 NAUTICAL MILE RADIUS OF 463732N/1212147W OR THE YAKIMA /YKM/ VORTAC 254.0 DEGREE RADIAL AT 38.1 NAUTICAL MILES AT AND BELOW 10000 FEET MSL TO PROVIDE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR SEARCH AND RESCUE. WASHINGTON STATE EMERGENCY SERVICES, TELEPHONE 206-949-1022 OR FREQ 123.1, IS IN CHARGE OF THE OPERATION.SEATTLE /ZSE/ ARTCC, TELEPHONE 253-351-3520, IS THE FAA COORDINATIONFACILITY. ----- If the TFR is rougly centered on the crash site... then this is the type of terrain we're talking about here... http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&formtype=latlong&latlongtype=degrees&latdeg=46&latmin=37&latsec=32&longdeg=-121&longmin=21&longsec=47 ... click on the "Aerial Image" & zoom in / out. Maybe some of y'all "Google Earth" smart folks can add something better.

They're (the FAA) probably (my guess) going on the initial crash site reports, along with its been confirmed that 7 are known dead and making the (likely) conclusion that all 10 are deceased. I'd imagine (or would like to think) they (the FAA) has some guidelines on how to write their preliminary reports. Its not going to change anything and if they were to find survivors, that would be a good thing. Its all part of "preliminary." I wouldn't beat them up too badly.

From the www.faa.gov website... "Preliminary Accident and Incident Reports"... ******************************************************************************** ** Report created 10/9/2007 Record 4 ** ******************************************************************************** IDENTIFICATION Regis#: 430A Make/Model: C208 Description: 208 Caravan 1, (Super)Cargomaster, Grand Date: 10/08/2007 Time: 0325 Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N Damage: Unknown LOCATION City: WHITE PASS State: WA Country: US DESCRIPTION N430A, A CESSNA 208B AIRCRAFT, CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES WHILE TRANSPORTING PARACHUTE JUMPING TEAM, THE 10 PERSONS ON BOARD WERE FATALLY INJURED, WAS THE SUBJECT OF AN ALERT NOTICE, WRECKAGE LOCATED IN THE VICINITY OF WHITE PASS, WA INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 10 # Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Pass: 9 Fat: 9 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: WEATHER: UNKNOWN OTHER DATA Activity: Other Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER FAA FSDO: SPOKANE, WA (NM13) Entry date: 10/09/2007

Does anyone have a more "exact" locaiton of the crash site other then "in the vicinity of White Pass, WA"? It might help to understand what a jumper whould have to deal with (not good) if they managed to get out of a plane and get under canopy, at night, going down over the Casscades. ... the Lord works in mysterious ways though, I'd still rather like to hear of the missing three come walking out with their rigs over their shoulders. BSBD brothers & sisters.

UPDATE #2!!! So far, we have the following suggestions for Antoinette's 07 Halloween Costume: 1. El-Vira "Mistress of Darkness" 2. Vampire Cheerleader 3. Saint Pauli' Girl ------------------------ HALLOWEEN EXTRAVAGANZA October 26th and 27th Friday, October 26th Movie Night!!! Bring your favorite horror/scary movie, snack and beverage (beer!) Saturday, October 27th Space Ball Fun Pumpkin Drops Tracking Contest and of course Hit N' Chug *Don't forget to wear your costume* Call 1-888-373-4007 for more information or to reserve your pumpkin. Hope to see you there! Skydive California City 5999 Curtiss Place California City, CA 93505 1-888-373-4007

We are not running a Diesel on our planes yet but I keep talking about it to everyone that will listen. I want to shorten the climb times for me and the up jumpers, reduce the fuel burn, and make the 206 an airplane that you can give to a low time pilot with out him screwing up the engine. Changing tires is easier than cylinders. Hey Jr. My bad, I thought I had heard that y'all had done did that, but I guess its just still "in work."

Right. But diesel engines that run on JP4 work exactly like diesel engines, just with a different fuel. Yes... No. I'm sure there are still some turbines out there with glow plug and ballast (vacuum tube) ignition systems, but many (most ?), I'm guessing have been replaced with an electronic ignition system which uses something more spark plug like. I believe Van Prey Jr. and his wife, Emiko, are operating a diesel 206 on an east coast DZ somewhere.

Troll.