diverdriver

wuuurrrrd

I was thinking more along the lines of a cross braced fully eliptical. Yo....don't be trippin on me. 9 cells rulz...don't mess with me and my 9 cell homies.

Yo! Gonna drop a lil' north side skill! 7 Cells drewl and 9 cell semi-ellipticals RULZZZ!!!!! (if you aren't at Rantoul you may not get it )

It was some serious Wrath of God stuff. Saw some serious twisting in some wall clouds. But then we all came out and they were telling us to go back in the hangar because another storm was coming. None hit and we were told not to go into town because the streets were flooded. They weren't. That was the comical part. But the first storm to hit was really, really nasty. The convention faired fairly well for it though. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Hangar TWO!!!........HANGAR TWO!!!!!!.......GO NOW!!!!!!! Aagggghhhhh....panic!

He's talking about East Troy, Wisconsin. That is where he has his other plane. Or at least used to. I don't know what deal he can do for you there but they do have experienced instructors. But, I don't trust any plane SDI owns or used to own. I won't jump them anymore. I had concerns before. But I guarantee I won't get in one ever again. Too many "flames were coming out of the engine" stories. Yes, there's more than one. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

True dat. I know what you are saying. Endless tandems may not teach the student much. We do 2 tandems at SDC at the beginning of the AFP program. We used to do 3 because that was what the USPA approved for allowing Tandems to lead to one JM jumps. Roger knew that 3 was just too much and there was the issue with the original student harnesses being uncomfortable. 2 TMs seemed more appropriate so that's what we do now. I guess you could say that Roger agreed with you that Tandem was a tool but only to a certain point. So can you really call it Tandem progression if we only do 2 now? That might have been a better question for me to ask rather than going down this long road. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Ummm...well sorry about the money. But if you want to finish your skydiving lessons there are 3 very fine (and more stable) DZs in the Chicago area. Have you tried calling their business number and ask for your money back? I think that would be the first thing I'd do. And yes, some skydivers who normally jump at Morris did come out to Skydive Chicago. (I hate calling them "Morris jumpers". Like it's a nationality or something. WE are skydivers. The tribal attitude really befudles me.) Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

You know Ron, I think we sometimes forget what it's like to be a first time jumper. I think most first time jumpers don't think of a tandem as "having someone hold their hand". I think they see Tandem as a skydive like any other and don't know much about the sport unless they get into it or are told by someone in the sport that their hand is being held. I don't believe they are having their hand held but I won't convince you of that. They made the decision to come make a jump. They filled out the waiver saying they understand they could get hurt or killed on that jump. I'm sure they realise how real it is. Also, having worked at both types of DZs (with tandem progression and without) I'd say there are more qualified skydivers coming out of the AFP program than came out of the S/L AFF prgram where I have been before. I completely disagree that tandem jumping itself is harming our sport. It may be the way some choose to utilize tandem. But it is not the tandem jump itself. I can't see 2 tandem jumps as being all that earth shattering in the grand skeem of things. If someone goes on to their AFP levels and shows signs of not being able to handle the gravity of the sport (no pun intended) then they can still be asked to leave. We have a jumper who did something like 50 S/L jumps. (that may be a bit exagerated but it was really a lot of s/l jumps.) He does freefall now but only very limited RW. He stuck with it though and I consider him to be less of a hazard to himself and others than some people who pass 7 levels of AFF and think they have a clue about this sport. Your arguements about Tandem teaching dependency are the same arguements I heard years ago why people should go AFF instead of S/L since "the rope" teaches dependancy too. If someone is dependant by being attached to a person in freefall then a S/L jumper is dependant because he is attached to the plane. Period. Course, I don't believe S/L students are dependant but that's how I see your arguement. You still have to have stones to climb out on the step and let go. I just don't like seeing Tandem being given a bad wrap. It's a tool. Nothing more. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

I like Siglines that tell me who is posting. Name, rank, and serial number. Course, I never was in the military. One little evening with a principle's daughter, a goat, and some fishnet stockings and the whole world gets in a tizzy. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

You know, you got a point there Tonto.

Umm....that's who I heard it from. Was giving credit that I didn't come up with it. Obviously. Oh, and Roger was into martial arts too. Hmmmmm....connection?

Teaching dependence? I don't see that at all. If we were teaching dependence then they would only ever jump tandem. Right? As it is they do two tandems and then go on a solo rig with one JM. Not TWO JMs like AFF. Why 2 JMs? They just tell you to have one JM let go if anything goes tumbling. So what's the point? If anything that's the dependent program. You need extra training wheels and you are saying to the student "Don't worry. If you forget to pull then one JM is here to pull for you. If he forgets or doesn't make it to you in time then the other one will pull for you." That's how I see AFF. A tandem can be done as a teaching dive. Arch, COA, practice pulls, COA, have fun, COA, pull! pull on time! pull with stability! With a tadem master arching behind them they may even learn that feeling of arching. How many AFF 1s have you seen go out completely dearched....tumble...one JM let's go....then they start to get stable. On a tadem, they can be taught right from the start what a proper, head high exit launch looks and feels like. "Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect." -Roger Nelson. Your student progression scenario is very interesting. I think it does let you break down in the same fashion as AFP. You do your AFF levels after several introductory jumps that don't over load the student. So, I see it as we are basicly talking about the same concept but in different aplications as to how we are comfortable with teaching a student. Let's face it. If the JM isn't comfortable with the teaching progression it won't come across to the student well either. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Oh great. Another welfare state. We want the money but don't want to do anything for it. No firing range? No base. Deal with it. That firing range has been there for 60 years. Now all of sudden it's a problem? Always remember.....Who butters your bread?

Man, 100, I should be so lucky. What a life he led. Again, I should be so lucky. Blues skies Bob. Save a round a golf for us.

Derek, you the man. How long did it take to type all that out with all the links? Man, nice job.

Ok Ron, lets lock horns. I like the Tandem Progression AFP program here at Skydive Chicago. My point of view first. I have an expired IAD JM rating. I learnd from doing IAD. I do NOT have an AFF rating. I did go through the TM rating course and did some probationary jumps but did not complete the whole rating. 800 jumps. Jump pilot. Now, I like the AFP program because you have to ask yourself how many jumps are the majority of people who show interest in the sport going to do? One. That's fact. Now, your experienced jumpers like fast turbine airplanes. AFF is cost and effort prohibitive and is set up for failure with too much information too fast to be efficient. The tandem progression allows an operation to give first time jumpers the freefall experience they desire. It allows for personal one-on-one coaching rathter than the AFF group class for hours on end with endless drills. AFP allows also for those TM students to make a turbine plane go to full altitude. We all know that we don't make as much margin off of experienced jumpers. I like the SL / IAD progression method. But then you need two types of planes possibly and cause greater congestion in the sky at busy centers. We used to have SL 182s and two Twin Otters all operating at the same time at SDC. I'm glad we don't have that anymore. You also have to hire pilots that know what they are doing. It is much easier to employ a few pilots than a whole bunch to get things done. Now back to the student. We don't run a joy ride type of TM. They go through the hour class to get the basic body position down and to learn a bit about steering. Remember, they are here to be safe and have fun. Why over load them with a lot of info for just one jump? Plus, the cost to the student for making one jump is much more palitable. It opens the doors to more students rather than having to shell out big $$ for ONE AFF class and jump. I see TM progression as the happy medium between a good SL / IAD progression operation and AFF. It is good economics for the DZ and helps the fun jumpers too. Once you have the student out there and they have had a good time they may choose to do another jump but on another day. They've had to make two drives out. This is the habbit building stage. They left the DZ last time with a positive (and hopefully videod) experience and are now returning for something familiar. We offer our second tandem at a deep discount to encourage them to jump twice. So, the total for two jumps actually evens out much better than making two AFF jumps. And they also now have two freefalls with a personal coach. Whether they realise it or not they have now built some habits and gained some experience. They know a familiar face, they've been to manifest a couple of times, they've put on gear (ok, just a TM harness but it still the same really), and they may recognise a few familiar faces along the way. This is the community building. Now, after two positive freefall experiences at a monitary rate that is much more palitable than AFF they are ready for the class to transition to solo gear. Their next jump is the third and not all things will be foreign to them when they return. They will be more relaxed because they have some expectation on how things willl go. A more relaxed student is a better student. I think you'd agree. They get all the schooling on gear checks, and canopy control, and use of flight plans that you are familiar with. But now when they look at an arial photo of the airport they will have real world experience having been up their with an instructor in a conversational tone (not squaking over a radio that can malfunction) as to where the airport is and how they are going to fly their pattern. They have something to draw from. They are much more likely to perform better on their first solo jump (solo under canopy not without a JM) than they might otherwise. And also, the class size will be much more manageable for the instructor who can spend more personal time with the students in class. It was figured once how much the whole AFP progression cost and how much it would cost for AFF at most centers and then get your A license. It was actually the same cost and in some cases cheaper to do the AFP course. Oh, and we video our AFP jumps (not the TM jumps) for free so the student can look at their progress over and over at home. It also makes for better debriefing if every jump is videoed. So, overall, my opinion is that AFP (tandem progression) is far superior to AFF for it's personal attention, and cost efficiency for the DZ. edit to add: So I see that it has nothing to do with being scared or not. It is a valuable training tool and helps a DZ stay efficient while getting as many people exposed to our sport as possible. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Ocean? What about all the sand? Would that not also have a detrimental effect possibly? More info on the DOM of this harness/container would be interesting.

LMFAO!!!!!!!!! bwahahahahahha......oh man.......can't breathe.........bwaaahahahhahahhahahah........

Or crosswind Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

This is Creswell, OR right? Had the Caravan with fuel contamination earlier this year? Do you have more info as to what action exactly the FAA is taking? Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

DOH!!!

NICE CATCH TOM! Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Be all you can be?

I suppose upwind are better (why else do it almost always) so why doesn't one fly the plane a bit further then and still do droprun upwind? Ummm....sorry. I didn't understand your question at all.