FLYJACK

If Clara was real then Cooper was real. You are saying Cooper's identity can't be determined from Clara's story.. because it is unverifiable. Obviously his identity would have been obfuscated. But, if we assume it was the real Cooper, we can draw conclusions from Gunther's experience even outside of Clara's narrative. Cooper's location/residence, he survived, likely lost the money, and timing etc.. For Clara's narrative we have less confidence but may find some things that correlate with a suspect.. To claim it would not help if it were the real Cooper just makes no sense..

That is my read,, Clara's role was to convince the public via Gunther and the FBI via Himmelsbach that Cooper had died and was a good person right when interest in the case had increased... He hadn't died they wanted people to give up looking for him... I wonder if Cooper might have written the letter to Himmelsbach as Clara. I don't get the impression this was written by a woman.

The Clara narrative doesn't have to be all true, just enough for credibility with Gunther.. if Clara was a real associate of Cooper that doesn't mean her story has to true. In other words, Cooper being the real one doesn't require Clara's narrative to be accurate. People falsely believe that identifying the initial contact as the real Cooper depends on the legitimacy of Clara's narrative. It doesn't, I assume Clara's story is somewhat made up even if she was legit,, I just don't know which parts or how much.

Are you saying that if it was the real Cooper it doesn't help.. because the Clara narrative is unverifiable..

Gunther claimed that the "Cooper" initially wanted money to go to charity but that was a ruse to get a dialogue going,,, The "Cooper" just wanted money. You are right though there are some logic steps here.. none can be proven. First is.. was Gunther the hoaxer. Very unlikely for reasons previously laid out. If we accept that Gunther wasn't the hoaxer,, Then was the "Cooper" a hoaxer, if so then "Clara" was also a hoaxer. If the "Cooper" was the real Cooper then Clara was an associate. Those are the best two options.. and I can't figure out why if a hoaxer, "Cooper" would disappear then have a surrogate contact Gunther and Himmelsbach ten years later claiming he had died and was a good guy.... it makes more sense if he was the real Cooper.

Even speculation is based on reasoned analysis of information.. but it can't be evaluated without the underlying argument.. Not all speculation is equal... You claimed things you read in the book caused you to believe Gunther wasn't contacted by the real Cooper. How can anybody evaluate that without knowing what information you used to reach that conclusion. I haven't seen anything in the book that indicates the "Cooper" contact was or wasn't the real Cooper. This happens all the time in this case because we don't have a lot of hard facts. We have to use speculation or inference to try to understand things. Most people conclude the Gunther book is a hoax but nobody can put together a good argument or they have misunderstood the book.. If it was a couple of hoaxers it tells us nothing about Cooper. If it was the real Cooper that tells us he survived, he likely lost the money, he was on the East coast and suddenly dropped contact. He was probably alive in 1982 but wanted to be considered dead by using an associate to push that narrative.

We aren't hijacker's either.

Am a skeptic by nature as well.. That is why I asked... why would hoaxer Clara contact Gunther and Himmelsbach ten years later.. it doesn't make sense.

You missed the premise of the book, Gunther was not fooled.. he admitted that he did not know if Cooper and Clara were legit and was not representing the contact as the real Cooper.. He was telling his experience and left it up to the reader. It is very unlikely Gunther perpetrated the hoax or made it all up,, his reputational risk and legal exposure going to the FBI was too high. He was already successful and didn't need the risk.. He likely filled in some things with research and case info from Himmelsbach. Essentially we have two primary possibilities.. Both the initial Cooper contact was a hoaxer and Clara was a hoaxer.. or It was the real Cooper and Clara was an associate.. (not necessarily a girlfriend) The accuracy of Clara's narrative isn't the test, if she was a hoaxer she made it all up but that seems extreme or hoaxer to do, if she was legit she could have made up most of it. The question is motive,, what were they trying to accomplish.. The first contact was for money.. hoaxer or the real Cooper.. works either way if Cooper lost the money in the hijacking. But what is the motive for Clara, a hoaxer somehow associated with the initial Cooper hoaxer. Why contact Gunther and Himmelsbach 10 years later?? Very risky for a hoaxer and why, it just doesn't really make sense. But, if it was the real Cooper and Clara was an associate then a motive for Clara would be to establish the narrative that Cooper had died and that he was a good guy... though he probably hadn't died. This was not long after the TBAR money find, the Cooper movie and renewed interest in the case.. IMO, Clara's role was to establish the false narrative that Cooper was dead. Can anybody reasonably explain why Clara if a hoaxer would contact Gunther and Himmelsbach ten years later with a very detailed narrative...

How do you/we know that he was contacted by a hoaxer and not the real Cooper? We can't know... I do have more evidence that pushes the needle toward it being the real Cooper. We can't dismiss the possibility. If Cooper did lose the ransom money, this would be an opportunity to cash in.. Why would an associate hoaxer "Clara" contact Gunther ten years later and contact Himmelsbach to claim Cooper had died and he was really a good guy... I just can't make sense of that. Anybody have a reasonable explanation.

Yes, he talked on the phone.. in detail. The only reason I can think of for a real Cooper to contact Gunther for money is if he lost the ransom in the jump.. The Gunther thing is a tough nut to crack, he lays it out that it may be a hoax and is telling a narrative told to him... It is extremely unlikely Gunther is the hoaxer, he would be putting himself in reputational and legal jeopardy. Clara's narrative is unverifiable. It could be partially or entirely made up. IMO, people too easily dismiss Gunther, there is a legit possibility that he was contacted by the real Cooper.. if so that is a big deal..

Not top secret info,, The stairs could be lowered inflight.. that could have been picked up in the media, from personal experience, job experience or second hand info. He could have heard or read about the Vietnam or US tests but never been involved.. He had to be very confident that the stairs could be lowered inflight but the number of people that had that knowledge is hard to quantify or source. It suggests Cooper had aviation experience or interest.. Another one of those Vortex things that has no answer..

Somebody on Reddit asked about the theory that the TBAR money wasn't from Cooper... That was my research and theory and it is a bit complex but theoretically possible that the TBAR money was NOT from Cooper at all. I can hear some eyeball roll already. I am not claiming this is fact or I think this happened, I don't know what exactly happened but it is theoretically possible. Fact.. We know that the money found on TBAR matched the FBI list. Fact.. The list was short 2 bills. The issue is the creation of the FBI list and its accuracy, it was a keystone cops type of process. Most people, even seasoned Cooper researchers don't understand how that FBI serial number list was created and the room for error. This is a bit complicated but the FBI list might not be accurate. The money was pre-recorded by the bank and in a special stash of $250,000 with $230,000 being in $20's and $20,000 in tens.. The bank pulled 100 packets ($200,000) in bundles and sent them to Cooper. So, 15 packets ($30,000) were left behind from the stash The Bank sent the Recordak Micro of all $250,000 to the FBI... They wrote down the top and bottom bill of the 15 packets remaining at the bank and said to deduct those plus the 98 bills in between from the list. They ignored the $20,000 in tens. Got it so far.. The FBI had to deduct 1500 bills from the micro based on only 15 pairs of serial numbers to get an accurate list. The bank immediately incorporated the 15 packets back into a new bank emergency ransom stash. The FBI was having trouble figuring out the serial numbers to deduct from the original micro so they asked the bank for help. The bank sent them the Recordak of the new bank stash with the 15 bundles left behind in there. The bank gave the FBI the range for the 15 sets of bills in the micro.... but there was an error, one of the bills was incorrect. So, the FBI should have compared the entire list for the first micro vs the second micro and deducted any bills that appeared on the second micro,, the process of creating the FBI serial number list was done by deduction.. They were given a total list that included 1500 bills that Cooper did not take. So, did they get this correct,, were bills manipulated after the original micro before they went to cooper.. I don't know, we can't check without the original micro.. We know the FBI list is missing 2 bills, that indicates an error of some sort. But here it gets interesting.. if they mixed bill numbers and were not deducted properly and the ones left at the bank were on the FBI list then some of the bills would not have gone to Cooper.. Those 1500 bills added to the new extortion/ransom stash may have been used for another event. Another second way the FBI list may not be accurate is if the bank stash was not kept accurate after the initial Recordak. The bills were recorded some time previous and the micro was presumed accurate at the time of the hijacking.. The bills were not recorded right before the hijacking. If some bills were used and replaced but the micro was not redone. This is unlikely as banks are very accurate but it is possible. The problem is the FBI serial number list, we have no way to confirm that they got it right since it was created by deduction and not positive identification. The point is everyone assumes the TBAR money was money given to Cooper is a 100% fact but it is possible based on the convoluted process to create the FBI list that the TBAR money didn't go to Cooper... I think it probably is money given to Cooper but it is something less than 100%... and we can't check,, the fact that 2 bills are missing from the list indicates an error somewhere.

Sure it was.. when it came out Calame and Rhodes did the media.. It wasn't just readers of the books and I don't know the exact number of books sold but I doubt it was only a few. I knew all about the Calame and Rhodes argument before I got the book. Their cred pushing the McCoy narrative influenced the public and made McCoy the #1 Cooper suspect... Nothing had the impact that they did to plant the myth. People who make McCoy arguments use their arguments, most were false or embellished. When people look into the Cooper case they find the Calame and Rhodes McCoy stuff.. Even Dan Gryder used the book as his foundation for research...

Jude missed the mark completely... Critics take the Clara story too literally. Look beyond her story and explore motives. What is she trying to accomplish... Clara's apparent motivation was to convince the public via Gunther and then FBI that Cooper had died,,, and he was really a nice guy. IMO, she wanted sympathy and to give cover. It wasn't to give an accurate and detailed account. That was her motivation and that isn't normally something a hoaxer would do. The Clara story as told by her is not to be taken as true, it has only enough facts to gain credibility whether she was associated to Cooper or not. Gunther told Clara's story as told to him and not presenting it as fact. If she was legitimately connected to the real Cooper 95% of her story could be false, half truths or misinformation. IMO, Gunther was contacted by either Cooper or a hoaxer in '72 and later an associate "Clara" who told a mostly fabricated story for the purpose of declaring Cooper dead. He wasn't. Gunther said it was her story and not to be taken as fact. He didn't know her identity and said it may not be true so no need for an NDA. The NDA is a red herring. Those Gunther notes look like a typed up version of hand written notes,, Options.. 1 Cooper contact in "72 was a hoaxer and Clara was made up by Gunther to fill out a story. Huge risk for Gunther publishing and contacting the FBI. Very unlikely. 2 Cooper contact in '72 was a hoaxer and Clara was an associate hoaxer.. then why contact 10 years later and she did get some things right. Hard to figure a motive. 3 Cooper contact in '72 was the real Cooper and Clara was a hoaxer. Seems unlikely, why do that and she had inside info. Unlikely. 4 Cooper contact in '72 was the real Cooper and Clara was an associate (may or may not be a girlfriend). Why? To claim Cooper had died when he hadn't and paint him as really a good guy.. Clara may have been given a script. IMO, it is 2 or 4.

This biggest influence on the public believing McCoy was Cooper was the Calame and Rhodes book "The Real McCoy".. One of the foundations of their argument was the tie clasp, they claimed a picture was shown to a relative and it was identified as belonging to McCoy.. sounds convincing right.. but there are two problems. First, Calame and Rhodes misrepresented what actually happened, in the the FBI files the relative stated it looked "similar"... it wasn't a positive identification. Further, the tie had a very well used center "tie pin" hole,, so the tie had a "tie pin" for most or all its existence up to the hijacking. That alligator clip was likely added for the hijacking or shortly before. but Ryan gets the context wrong for informing the passengers of the hijacking. For Cooper the crew took it upon themselves to ask Cooper if he wanted the passengers informed, they instigated the issue, it was not a demand by Cooper. Whereas on other hijackings the crew just announced a hijacking. So, the variation lies with the crew's response not Cooper. If the crew hadn't asked Cooper they could have easily just announced a hijacking to the passengers. Claiming Cooper's MO was different is false. It was the crew's response that was different.

Merry Christmas to you and all the Cooper sleuths,,, even Georger..

It is more than an opinion, it is logic.. You can't know the entire universe that a particle existed in the mid 60's and you can't know that the particle composition is accurate. Those are facts. Just be careful, you guys elevated the TiSb particles from speculation/assumption to fact and used it to run with Vordahl. Some of us knew that was a bogus foundation to build a suspect on. Vordahl has no connection to the Cooper case and the tie has no substantiated connection to Rem Cru or Vordahl... the TiSb Rem Cru connection was over played. The particles are worth exploring but don't make the same mistake twice.

But you can't pin it down because the data is not accurate enough and you can't know every environment for any subset of particles or its place in the entire complex of particles. It isn't science, it is speculation and the danger is to represent it as science.

Too cheap and used for a thrift shop and too dirty, they would have at least cleaned it. That tie had no value in that condition.

How? You can't confirm a registered alloy or even an alloy.. It is like finding mustard on a tie and trying to claim the guy worked in a mustard factory. When it is more likely he just ate a hot dog..

I doubt it had real gold,, They used cheap metals and plating for those things. Some of the stub samples were taken from the location of those clasp marks.. Maybe Tom needs to sort that out.

My take on the tie... It was purchased about 1964/65, very cheap and very dirty, had two tie pin holes and significant dust in the knot area. That essentially rules out a thrift shop.. The tie was worn with a tie pin based on the well worn hole, not the alligator clip. You don't use both a pin and a clip. The alligator clip made the tie easier to remove and was probably added for the hijacking. The tie pin may have been a company/agency pin identifying its source and one reason fo its removal. The dust in the knot area indicates that the tie was not worn for some time, perhaps a few years. It was likely stored hanging in a dusty environment to get the concentration in the knot area. IMO, it was purchased/obtained in 1964/65 for a specific job and used for several years (to 1968/69) with a tie pin, then it was stored upright for a few years until Norjak when the alligator clip was added... Many of the horizontal particle concentrations shown under UV are from the folded tie touching the alligator clip in storage. Many of those particles are from the alligator clip. I have two specific theories for the ownership,, one is Cooper and one is not Cooper. NOT A THRIFT SHOP.

Without a registered alloy you can't research a use.. or environment.

This tells me we can't really rely on the accuracy of the EDS and particles may or may not be alloyed or registered alloys. In other words.. we can't use the particles with any specificity..