jaaska

OK... I even though I read the email I could not find that comment of "they use our post to lauch rockets"... Could you please point me where the canadian wrote that the building was taken... Thanks. Correct me if I'm wrong. It sounds to me that you think, that IDF did the right thing even though they received a message that they were in fact bombing the post and the observers? Edited to add: The above comment goes to anyone who says that the bombing was for a good reason even after the IDF received the message... Please tell me, if you truly believe so - because if you do, this whole conversation is pointless...

shall i quote you the email from the guy who was actually there? you (and others here) first ASSUMED that the UN post was attacked with a single purpose of killing them (as if Israel has any reason to do so). now that there is absolute proof that Hizbollah was using the UN post as cover (as mentioned by the UN observers on site) you start analyzing the structure, ASSUMING where they might have been and what is the size and type of ammunition needed in order to kill the Hizbollah 10 feet from the outpost but not damage the outpost itself. you can build a lot of thoeries based on these assumptions but the 2 basic facts remain 1)Israel has nothing to gain from killing UN personnel. 2)Hizbollah was using this outpost as cover (even if not on top of it) just like it uses a lot of civilian structures to hide its rockets. and once it does, these structures become targets. The rocket guys were not in the structure. The UN observers called in the period of over 6 hours to the IDF and told them, that they have a wrong target. The IDF received the message multiple times (10). The final hit (that actually levelled the building, including the shelter) came from a laser guided bomb. If they could point the laser, they could SURELY read the label (UN). When the UN rescue unit (an armored vehicle) came to the site after final hit (to evacuate), IDF targeted that unit. The vehicle is big, white armoured truck (H-bollah does not have anything like that) with VERY big letters spelling UN. According to an Estonian officer who was in the in the area, it COULD NOT HAVE BEEN an accident. The building was not used by H-bollah, as some try to imply!!

There was a blue print of the UN post in a local news paper. Unfortunately I could not find it in the net (I'll keep on trying). In short. The post is very small, the only place one could have launched any rockets would have been the roof (also known as observation deck). Now, I'm pretty darn sure the H-bollah did not have access to the roof (the only way would have been trough the post and the radio messages that the observers sent did not imply that the post was in fact invaded. (Other wise they would have left with an armored vehicle, I'm sure). So it was not a base or anything. It was just one armored building. Thus, the rockets were not launched from the building (it was not captured by the H-bollah or anything). Yes, the rockets might have (unfortunately the un-biased observers died, so we will never know) been launch from the neighborhood. See my post about armour etc... Attached the picture of the post (you cannot really see, LQ, but there's barb-wire & stuff, the building was not taken!) and a pic of an UN vehicle...

maybe if UNIFIL did what it was meant to do and didn't allow Hizbollah to use its bases as cover. as soon as a building is used as cover for hizbollah fighters it cannot hide behind the UN flag. anyway, i think the email sent by the UN soldier a few days before the incident is pretty clear in showing that the UN there (much like the civilians) are hostages of Hizbollah For F**KS sake - please, tell me what the UNIFIL was supposed to do there?!? I mean the US has basically vetoed everything that would have given the UN guys more leverage than just to observe. These guys were O B S E R V E R S. Look it up in the dictionary. Their mission is to observe what's going on and inform the UN... Nothing less, nothing more! The H-bollah was not in the post nor on the post's ground. They might have been next to it. Israel did not have to level the post including the shelter - it was totally un-called for...

no, a more accurate analogy would be if... the terrorist/drug dealer/whatever is not just sitting in his flat, he is currently shooting at other civilians from your appartment. and on top of all, the police has asked you to leave but you've refused. then the police did what it had to do, risking hurting you in order to stop the terrorist/drug dealer/whatever from shooting at others in the area. You know, the observers did have a "shelter" that provided cover for anything else but a direct aerial smart bombs... Just guessing, but I would say the H-bollah guys did not have an equivalent shelter build on the UN observation post yard. Thus, I would have understood if IDF would have used lighter, e.g. grenade shells (mortar or something) to just plain kill anyone near the site or even on the site (since the shelter would had provided cover for the observers). What I don't understand is that they seemed to want to flatten the whole post including the shelter (where the observers were trying to stay alive)? I haven't heard that the H-bollah has armoured vehicles nor anything similar so why such a heavy bombing unless your the goal was in fact to level the UN post...? So you analogy is actually incorrect - the H-bollah was not in nor on the observation post. They might have been right next to it. (So not in the flat, might have been in the next one...)

As stated earlier, this is what most of us were expecting... Of course our point of view differs about the main point: Why did the IDF use deadly, precision-guided weapons (apparently not good enough? or something else?) to wipe out the observation point after of 6 hours and at least 10 phone calls to them that they were in fact going to kill the UN observers if they continued to bomb the same target? Equivalent to this would be: The police is using deadly force in your neighborhood. Someone in the next flat is a terrorist/drug dealer/whatever. Instead of being careful, they would level the place - including yours with you and your buddies playing poker... So what - they did get the bad guy, you and your buddies are collateral damage - TOO BAD, SO SAD! I mean, you did call them and all - they just didn't give a F***!

They are killing far less than they could be...Those are typically called collateral damage.... those killed by mistake in the fog of war... Perhaps the Israelis should just start killing them all as in the combat zone as some here claim they are "ethnic cleansing".( which you and they know is a specious arguement but will continue to make it because of their hatred of jews.) So... Sending in fliers saying "This is a combat zone, leave your homes or you will be identified as terrorists" and then bombing the civilians as they flee, makes perfect sense to you? I mean, if you don't leave, you are a terrorist, if you do, you will die... Nice options. So, bombing of the refugee convoys or humanitarian aid convoys makes perfect sense to you? BTW, H-bollah is as bad, hiding behind civilians and observes - I would only expect Israel to be less like "the terrorists" they are fighting and more like a civilized country... PS. A funny joke I saw on TV last night: What is the definition of an aggressive military action? . ... ..... A: An attack without an approval of the USA... If any other country than Israel would be bombing it's neighbour as widely and with such a high count of "collateral damage", US might have a different view of the situation... "We must act at once, before we face a humanitarian disaster - we must force them to cease fire at once!

Plus the six calls the from UN Lebanon HQ... So, 16 calls... WTF?! And no, it was not a time issue... The first call was placed almost 12 hours prior the final hit that totally levelled the place... 12 hours in bombardment. Think about it... Well, I can only guess that Israel wants the UN people out of the southern Lebanon, so that they can go on doing their "thing" without disturbance. It seems like it's working. Different countries are pulling their UN observers out of the southern Lebanon (among them Australia)... Can't really blame them though...

So... In these days of precision-guided weapons, it was an accident... RIGHT! The post's location was well known for years, on high ground with VERY distinguished markings (READ: VERY BIG UN LETTERS on the roof etc.) Oh, and your UN guy John Bolton is a sissy... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5216230.stm

I enjoyed reading your post. I'm going to be a parent very soon. My mother trusts me to be a good father. However, she did say the same thing as you did and even told me a story from the 70's when I was a small child: We were in a super-market. As we were passing the fruit section I said (I was probably 2-3 years old): "Let's have some bananas. I want bananas." "No, we are not having bananas today", my mother replied. There was a elderly lady close by, who started to argue (!) with my mother: " Bananas are healthy - give the boy some bananas!" My mother managed to keep her temper and respectfully answered: "In our family children do not choose what we eat", and walked away. ------- If you agree with the old lady - think about how you would explain for that 2-3 old (me), why it was okay for me to tell to get bananas, but not something else (e.g. sweets etc.)? Unfortunately many people (and parents) do not see the point - there is no difference. 2-3 years old children are not ready to make decisions about what they eat, when they eat, when they sleep, what they can/can't do, ... (and the list goes on and on). In fact there are very few decisions 2-3 years old babies can make - children that age are the happiest, when they have good routines and no surprises. And you are right - if a child is been raised "the other way", there is very little school can do when he/she gets there...

The sad thing about this mumble jumble is that it is spreading. I really do not care if people believe in the great spaghetti man or what ever - AS long as they do not try to push their obvious superstitions to national curriculums (science) etc. There is a small group of professional teachers here in Finland who are trying do that... Fortunately it is a very small minority...

source: http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0600273.htm At least they haven't lost their mind in the Vatican... Unfortunately the idea of ID is getting a foothold even here in Finland - so I guess it's true what the article says about it spreading...

Just my 2 eurocents... As some are suggesting now (different news media etc.) this has gone way beyond the comic trips... I mean, of course that's how it got started - but now different groups have all kinds of different agendas of their own and they use this incident as a tool to achieve whatever goals they have. It hasn't been about those drawins for a while now... Let's hope it'll cool off... So, as you were saying, originally this was perhaps about about the freedom of speech (a bit tasteless - but that's just my opinion). Now it has escalated to something totally different. It's a shame really. This will most certainly not help different cultures to understand each other...

Couple of questions. These cartoons were first published in (early) fall - why did it take so long for the outburst to occur? ... Who "organized" it and why now? Who would benefit from this? (Most probably more than one organization/state/company...) And now that there is such an outburst, who will benefit from throwing more gasoline on the flames? ....[switching to creepy-voiced conspiracy theorist]... Three theories (non of them real, of course, unless you suffer from paranoia - at least I hope so... ) * Hamas could wait for a proper moment to engage as a conciliatory party/group and try to calm down the extreme types. Result: the UN etc. would recognize them as new bridge builder (or something like that) and the EU/US would not cut down the development funds for the Palestinian administration. ** Who would benefit from extremist concentrating in a such stupid thing as cartoons (rather than some other, real, nasty stuff happening around middle-east and elsewhere)? *** and the last and the most probable one: Arla (a Danish (or should I type, THE) dairy group) has a major foothold in the Middle-East area. Who is their biggest rivalry? Name that and you'll find "the man" behind the hose of gasoline! ...[switching OFF the creepy-voiced conspiracy theorist]... OK. I admit - a stupid joke. To be honest, I don't know what to say about all of this. I used to think that since I live in a Nordic country, I would not have to worry about terrorism etc. I guess that's not a valid statement anymore...

Good morning...

Hmm... Have you ever tried to buy any manufactured goods elsewhere (outside US/Canada/GB)? In Finland, it is required by the law to have such information stamped in FINNISH - that must mean that Finnish is the universal language... Or maybe my world view is just very narrowed...

How about not having any kind of assessment (assessment tests as comparative tests b/w schools and school districts) at all... How would that work out? I know it does, because over here there are no "school/district/state wide assessment test" prior the A levels (a series of nation wide tests that are taken in upper secondary school when you are about 18/19 years old to have a go for the unis.)

Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum, þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon, hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon. Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum, 5 monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah, egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad, weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah, oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra 10 ofer hronrade hyran scolde, gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning! Ðæm eafera wæs æfter cenned, geong in geardum, þone god sende folce to frofre; fyrenðearfe ongeat 15 þe hie ær drugon aldorlease lange hwile. Him þæs liffrea, wuldres wealdend, woroldare forgeaf; Beowulf wæs breme (blæd wide sprang), Scyldes eafera Scedelandum in. 20 Swa sceal geong guma gode gewyrcean, fromum feohgiftum on fæder bearme, þæt hine on ylde eft gewunigen wilgesiþas, þonne wig cume, leode gelæsten; lofdædum sceal 25 in mægþa gehwære man geþeon. Him ða Scyld gewat to gescæphwile felahror feran on frean wære. Hi hyne þa ætbæron to brimes faroðe, swæse gesiþas, swa he selfa bæd, 30 þenden wordum weold wine Scyldinga; leof landfruma lange ahte. þær æt hyðe stod hringedstefna, isig ond utfus, æþelinges fær. Aledon þa leofne þeoden, 35 beaga bryttan, on bearm scipes, mærne be mæste. þær wæs madma fela of feorwegum, frætwa, gelæded; ne hyrde ic cymlicor ceol gegyrwan hildewæpnum ond heaðowædum, 40 billum ond byrnum; him on bearme læg madma mænigo, þa him mid scoldon on flodes æht feor gewitan. Nalæs hi hine læssan lacum teodan, þeodgestreonum, þon þa dydon 45 þe hine æt frumsceafte forð onsendon ænne ofer yðe umborwesende. þa gyt hie him asetton segen geldenne heah ofer heafod, leton holm beran, geafon on garsecg; him wæs geomor sefa, 50 murnende mod. Men ne cunnon secgan to soðe, selerædende, hæleð under heofenum, hwa þæm hlæste onfeng. ---- Oh... You did not mean English above, did you? Which one did you mean? When did it become "real" English? Before or after the great vowel shift? When did it become universal? What about in the future, when English as we know it now, will no longer exist except in old manuscripts....

Have you seen it? Thoughts? (I just saw it and remembered the whole movie, when folks started to talk about social security, schooling etc.) As a movie, I enjoyed to watch it. Also, it would be nice to look into the information it presented - I do believe the movie must have simplified the facts, just to get more "shock power". If this is not the case... Well then I should be truly shocked... edited: spelling

It's not clear to me that I got much of *any* kind of education between grades 5 and 12, and I would bet that home schooling can do a far better job of teaching the material taught in grades 1 - 4. Walt ... During the grades 1-4 pupils learn to be part of a group, interact and work together. Establishing this in home schooling is somewhat more difficult. Not impossible, just a bit more difficult (of course this depends on the size of your family).

A side note... Public vs. private is not that straight forward. Blaming your level of basic education on public school system is, well not valid. It's like saying "I had bad beef at one restaurant - thus all beef is bad and from now on I'm going to eat just chicken..." Take a look at PISA http://www.pisa.oecd.org/pages/0,2987,en_32252351_32235731_1_1_1_1_1,00.html Guess how many of those top rated countries had a mostly private school system... It's not the question of private vs. public - I'm confident you can make both work, or fail. Finland has a public school system. According to PISA it was rated on the top on two consecutive assessments. Also, the Finnish system was one of the most equal ones - no matter what part of Finland pupils came from or what school they went to, they were receiving similar scores in the assessment. So where you lived or came from did not have significant impact on how you were doing in the assessment. Would you agree this would not necessary be the case if we had a private school network instead?

Oh. I see - but this only applies to non-Americans... I mean, to be honest, most of the Americans I've been in touch with in different parts of the world can hardly say "thanks" or count to ten in the local dialect/language , even though some of them have stayed in that (insert a non-English country here) particular country for years. "Oh, I get by with my English just fine" is the most common answer when someone asks about it... Some people fear languages they don't know. I think having different languages is a richness. Oh, and if you don't like it down in Florida, you could always stay away from there, or try to learn some Spanish. It's not like someone is forcing you to go there, is it?

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but you are not giving your country a lot to be proud of lately. Walt - My country is better! - NOOOO! My country is better! - NO, NO, NO, NO! I swear, my country will kick the shit out of your country! - Our system is better! NOOOO! - Our system is better because... ... .. . .. ... ...- And I swear, my dad will kick the shit out of your dad!"... Oh, sorry - I thought I this was "My dad is better that your dad "forum". My mistake.

...now that's a funny statement... I'm quite sure I've seen this same strategy been used by some other nations as well... I might be wrong... or NOT!

Duh... Maybe that's the reason they made a video out of it... Way to go Visa! "Secondly, my crazy friend Visa makes the first jet engine aided birdman flight, accomplishing horizontal flight as planned" source: http://www.bird-man.com/?n=News&id=948