JeffCa

Thanks for all of your input, everyone. It has been helpful to me, and I hope it will be for some others who find this thread, too. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Please elaborate on that. I know you're one of the respectable safety guys around here, so I'd be interested in what you have to say about it. I didn't write it, but both instructors on duty told me to go at that point. The knew I'd been waiting all day for the winds to calm, and I received a literal thumbs up. What else should I be thinking about in these cases? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Damnit Spot, you know I can't jump at Elsinore all the time, so stop rubbing it in! I was at my NEW home DZ, the Tokyo Skydiving Club. Unfortunately, you, Lelo and Lob were unavailable there. They don't have that great Elsinore weather, either, so they can't afford to be so picky about the winds. Maximum winds allowable for any load is (IIRC) 30 knots (36mph). "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

You should have waited until the winds calmed a lot. I hope that is what you really meant. I waited until they were down to about 20 knots (24-25mph). The limit they have for A-licence at my DZ is 25 knots. I felt that at 20 knots I could move forward under the chute, and I was right. The downwind leg was super-fast, and I made very slow progress on base and final, but I made progress. I now know my personal wind limit for that canopy. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Yesterday I was at my new home DZ awaiting my first jump there. I'm still on rental gear, so was using their gear for the first time. The winds were about 27 knots (31mph), which is roughly twice what I had been limited to in my training up until then, and they were inconsistent/gusting. So let's recap: 1. first time jumping this particular rig 2. first jump at this DZ 3. winds double what I'd experienced before And what advice do I get from a couple of other low-time jumpers? "Just go, you'll be fine. Seriously, it's not that bad!" Keep in mind that they had been made well aware of the factors I listed above before they said this. Even when I told them I'd almost definitely be blown backwards at my wingloading (0.8), they didn't think it was a big deal. I waited until the winds had calmed somewhat before I went up. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Jump Shack did not publish (to my knowledge anyway), the design specs or anything, just the size and coefficient of drag. Then they made a chart of the drag force available for extraction vs. airspeed and altitude. But it seems like a weird explanation because anybody can buy a pilot chute from one of these companies and study the design. It's not a secret, it's out there, and can't be that difficult to reverse-engineer. The Booth's Law thing, yeah I get it. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I will be ordering my first rig very soon. I am getting pretty concerned over this issue of reserve extraction. We have a YouTube video of a guy who had to pull the reserve out manually. There's another story floating around here somewhere of the same happening to somebody else. We have multiple stories on multiple threads of riggers who couldn't get the reserves out of containers with a reasonable amount of force. We have the British issuing a new test procedure addressing the problem. We have John Sherman apparently keeping a count of the number of people who have gone in because their reserves didn't extract. We have whatever the hell happened in Florida with the double fatality. We have proposals for raising the AAD altitude because reserves aren't coming out fast enough. So what's a newbie, a first-time gear buyer, to think about all of this? Can somebody very knowledgeable please summarise for us here? Do we have a serious problem or not? If yes, how widespread is the problem? What can we do about, should we do about it, is being done now? Some have said the issue is merely overstuffed rigs, but the guy in the YouTube video it seems had a reserve that was appropriately sized for his container. I have read Jump Shack's John Sherman's comments on reserve extraction forces and pilot chute drag. I decided to take a look at what the major manufacturers have to say about their pilot chutes or extraction forces on their websites. Here is a quick summary. I may have missed something, but I think if I did, it just means the information is too hard for a prospective buyer to find on the site. Aerodyne (Icon): "one of the strongest pilotchutes in the industry" Nothing more was written. UPT (Vector): Nothing. Sunpath (Javelin): Nothing. Sunrise (Wings): "This design offers a pilot chute that will create drag from any angle allowing the reserve to be deployed equally as fast given any position." No specifics at all. Mirage: "Our partial-mesh reserve pilot chute canopy profile is unlike any in the industry, resulting in higher drag forces per fabric area." No specifics. Velocity (Infinity): Nothing. Jump Shack (Racer): A document explaining the specs on their pilot chutes and another document explaining maximum allowable extraction forces. Most manufacturers (no names, but some much more than others) make the embroidery, color options and pinstripe availability very prominent, but where is the more important stuff? I want a rig that is going to work. There are 3 things that I consider non-negotiable: 1. The harness will hold me in and not release me in flight. 2. The cutaway system will release when I pull the handle. 3. The reserve will deploy in an appropriate amount of time/altitude when I pull the handle. I don't want pinstripes, I want to live through the jump! Most containers seem to have #1 and #2 down pat, but #3 is presenting issues. Does anybody wish to contradict John Sherman's claim that Racer reserves extract every time? If not, then one solution is to buy a Racer. I'm definitely willing to do this, despite how "uncool" they might be. Did I miss something? Has any other manufacturer stepped up with this kind of important information? Comments? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Thanks very much, John! And thanks Sundevil for the graph! John, that's better than the Wikipedia article on the 3-ring. I've never seen it on any other manufacturer's site. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

A year? Your FAQ, apparently last updated in 1996, says you use "fully velcro-sealed riser covers." "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Thanks for the input, people. 45mph descent rate is not difficult to achieve. Vigil will be switched to Pro mode, as recommended by the manufacturer and by you. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Thanks skydiverek. I've seen that site, which really intrigued me, and that's me in the comments chewing out Jump Shack for their crappy website. I was just on the JS website again tonight, and took a more serious look around. They've got lots of technical articles that other manufacturers don't post, which is really cool. But it's horribly poorly presented. The FAQ, if you can even find it (it's buried way down as a link at the bottom of the technical articles, of all places), was last updated in 1996! 17 years ago!? They're talking about containers that I don't think they're even producing anymore. How about adding this particular question about the chest strap to the FAQ, as a start, then putting the FAQ somewhere where it can be easily found? Come on guys, what the hell are you doing at Jump Shack re marketing/promotion? You've got a product that you claim to be the best in the world and you give it a piss-poor presentation that is difficult to navigate and to find the information we're looking for. I did find a photo of my first instructor on there, though. Take a look at this, "the home page": http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?PageID=HOME How ugly and empty is that? Racer has made my shortlist of 3 containers that I'm interested in. I've already cleared it with my rigger. But if I wasn't the kind of person who mostly looks for substance instead of flash, it would have been off the list a long time ago. I know they like to brag that their rigs haven't had a major revision in decades, but websites need to be revised more frequently than that. Wow, what an off-topic tirade. It felt good to get off my chest. It feels like a very tight strap has been released from my high chest area. There, am I back on topic now? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Scoop, please post photos and opinions when you get your rig delivered and when you've jumped it for a bit. I'm interested in learning more about Racer. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Can somebody please elaborate on this? Is it correct that large 3 rings reduce cutaway pull forces? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I found this, containing reasons for UPT not using the red cables: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=179993 Newbie researching for first gear purchase here. I prefer maintenance-free to maintenance-required. Can I just get a red cable from Jump Shack regardless of what rig I buy, and swap out the standard yellow cable? Would this present any issues? Are the red cables or their housings a different size or something? My limited knowledge suggests that the only issue would be the lengths of the cables? I'm trusting that both (properly-maintained) yellow and red do an adequate job, as they're both still on the market after so many years. If one was a death trap, we'd know about it by now, no? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

(Keep in mind that I have not decided which AAD to buy yet.) Works for new Cypres, but if I'm not mistaken, the Vigil does not allow altitude raising other than DZ offsets. According to other discussions I've read, this also raises the lowest altitude it will fire at, which can be undesired. But I'm also really interested in a discussion of the speed issue and why a novice jumper would need or want a 78mph trigger speed. Why is 45mph good enough for a student but not a novice? We're not all starting to swoop right off of our student status. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

All of the recent discussion on AAD altitudes got me thinking about my own safety as I prepare for my first gear purchase. I've found various discussions on here about raising activation altitudes, the difference between that and offsets, as well as John Sherman's well-known opinions. So I notice that the Vigil II allows mode selection on a single unit. If I want to raise my activation altitude, why not just use one in student mode? I'll explain my thought process below, then the experienced jumpers can tell me what could possibly go wrong and what's the worst that could happen. Vigil in pro mode activates at 840' and 78mph. Student mode is 1,040' and 45mph. So I can get an automatic 200' extra altitude by using it in student mode. This makes sense for me because as an A-license jumper, I'm mandated by the USPA guidelines to pull at or above 3,000'. I've been using 3,500 feet for my pulls so far, as I recognize these are minimum recommendations. So even with a 1,000' snivel, I should be open well above 1,000 feet. If I'm not, I'm in some trouble. What about the speed? Why do I need it so high at 78mph? Consider I'd be on a Sabre2-class canopy at a 1:1 wingloading. I'm not experienced enough to have much idea of how much descent rate certain maneuvers can create, but is there anything I could realistically be doing to get over 45mph descent speed? Would pulling a 1,080-degree toggle turn before entering my downwind leg at 1,000 feet get me anywhere close to the 45mph required to trigger the Vigil in student mode? The Vigil website says this: "Students: once out of student status, switch your Vigil® to PRO." But why? What is a novice jumper doing that is so much different from what a student is doing that the activation speed nearly doubles? Couldn't I use it in student mode, at least for a few hundred jumps? Thanks for any feedback! "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

With respect and appreciation for your advice Dave, this particular incident is not what I was referring to. I was referring and replying to this comment, which is independent of the type of jump being done: "Looks like a couple of low-experience guys. This is one reason why it's usually not a good idea to let the inexperienced jump together. I can't think of a time when it IS a good idea." You outlined a scenario in which the inexperienced jump together to test the waters (airs?). The implication of the above comment is that the inexperienced should jump exclusively with the experienced until they themselves become experienced. It's hinting that the inexperienced, after being denied the chance to jump with the experienced (because they suck), should then not be "let" to jump with other inexperienced people, either. So where would that leave us? I'm sure he meant it at least somewhat in jest. Anyway I'm pretty far from freeflying, but I'll recall this when the time comes. Edit: I guess I should have actually quoted the comment I was replying to in my post, rather than just hit the "reply" button. That would have clarified things. I'll figure out how this forum works eventually. My apologies. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I think it was from Poynter's Skydiver's Handbook (paraphrased): "When nobody at the DZ will jump with you, form a team with other rejects and practice with them until you're good enough that the others start to notice." What other way is there, besides paid coaching? We all start somewhere. After just getting re-certified a couple of weeks ago, I was lucky enough to be invited to jump by several more-experienced jumpers who took an interest in me, but I could see not everybody being in that kind of encouraging environment. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

You might be a newbie if ... you don't understand the jokes about the newbies. What's with the CReW dog toggles hanging out thing? I don't get it. This isn't the first time that the newbie joke has gone way over my head. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Thanks Douglas, once again. It's a pretty big job, especially for somebody who told me a few days ago that he wouldn't be making videos this year :-) Anyway, I appreciate them very much, as always, and am glad you're even pointing out to some of the interviewees that some of the viewers are new jumpers doing "the sponge thing". As you know, that's me. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Meso, thanks for your reply. If you have a chance and don't mind, could you briefly describe what would be involved with such a process? If some people would like it and some people wouldn't, why not do it and make it optional for people to participate? Buyers and sellers could then have a "trusted" logo or something next to their names if they have completed the process. Considering a lot of gear is worth more than a typical used car, I'd be willing to pay for such security, which would hopefully make it worthwhile for you. If I was buying used gear today, I'd probably insist on using an escrow service like that offered by ChutingStar. Not only do I get an inspection to verify the condition, but my chance of getting scammed would go down considerably. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I don't know about the OP's reasons, but I have mine for traveling to Elsinore a few days from now to learn: 1. My home DZ is weekend-only, and I'd like to do this in a solid 3-week block. 2. Home DZ has frequent weather issues, which when combined with point #1, could mean waiting another few weeks to do next jump. 3. Home DZ is not in an English-speaking country. I'd like to learn to skydive in my native language, and the instructors seconded this idea. I must understand everything. 4. Home DZ has a rather smallish landing area with limited outs. Not an ideal place to learn if other options are available, seconded by the instructors. I've introduced myself around my future home DZ, and it seems unanimous that it's a good idea for me to learn on my vacation and come back to them when I'm more experienced. They actually expressed some jealousy that I have the opportunity to go to such a great place for a few weeks to jump. Many have been to Elsinore before, going back decades, and they recommended it highly. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

I marked an ad as a potential scam recently, and the ad has now been re-listed. It's a new account, never logged in, selling an item that should have a serial number but that was not listed, and the seller listed the wrong manufacturer in both ads. As a newbie who may be buying gear in the near future, I'd ask DZ.com to do whatever is reasonably possible to keep these scams out. So what if it's a little inconvenient? Wouldn't it be worth it to have confidence in the system when people are making transactions for so much money? "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Thanks for your replies! Andy, the Elsinore staff told me there's also a Norwegian invasion at that time (which is why we couldn't book the bunkhouse). They said it's a good thing, will keep the loads going up all day long, even on weekdays. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

Hello all! I want to say hi and thanks for this resource you've provided here. I've been reading it on a nearly daily basis for the last few months in preparation for getting back into skydiving, and I've learned a lot from you, which I believe is helping me to approach this with the correct attitude. I've learned: 1. that I don't have mad skillz. 2. that I'll never be so good that skydiving can't kill me. 3. who Sangi is. 4. what Booth's Law, the Germain chart and the Bill Von checklist are. 5. boobies. I've also attached a quote from Bill Booth in my signature that I want to think about every time I jump. So more about me. I got my A licence on a static line course at a Cessna DZ from the Australian Parachute Federation nearly 10 years ago, but haven't jumped since. I have 1 tandem, 7 static line and 12 solo freefall jumps. My girlfriend did her first tandem a few months ago. She has read The Skydiver's Handbook by Poynter twice since then. Anyway, after getting out from under a mountain of student debts, I'm finally at the point in my life when I can get back into skydiving. The money is in place, the flights and hotel are booked, this is really it! We'll be at Elsinore from March 15th-April 2nd. I'm doing a recurrency program and my gf will be doing her A-licence program. I'm interested in reaching out to any of you who jump at Elsinore and don't mind being seen with a couple of rookies. It would be great to know some people there when I arrive, especially if you might be another student in training or even my instructor. I'm also interested in hearing from you if you're an Elsinore female involved in the Sisters in Skydiving program, which I'd like to get my gf hooked up with. Blue skies and soft landings! "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth