jbscout2002

So a pilar of your argument is to compare the U.S. to a hand full of countries where gun ownership is nonexistent or tightly controlled, but when showing where the U.S actually rates on the spectrum of violence and displaying that the amount of guns in a country has no correlation in crime rates whatsoever, it is merely dismissed. Ok. Whatever numbers support your argument then. Dude, Moldova is the European equivalent of Somalia. Detroit, St. Louis, Birmingham, Memphis, and Baltimore are the U.S. equivalents of Moldova.

Since it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that gun control will not reduce the rate of violent crime (studies support that it leads to an increase in crime), how about discussing the negative effects of gun control. Remember, no positive effects because it does not stop or reduce anything, but aside from alienating people and violating their liberties, there is an economical impact as well. Stubborn Facts: The Gun Industry Employs Twice as Many Americans as GM (and That’s Just the Beginning) Mar. 26, 2013 8:59am Glenn Hall 


So a pilar of your argument is to compare the U.S. to a hand full of countries where gun ownership is nonexistent or tightly controlled, but when showing where the U.S actually rates on the spectrum of violence and displaying that the amount of guns in a country has no correlation in crime rates whatsoever, it is merely dismissed. Ok. Whatever numbers support your argument then.

So to be fair to both sides, less guns do equal less gun murders, but less guns do not equal less murders at all. I think the conspiracy theory that the NRA doesn't let anyone collect data is laughable. That is a convenient excuse for people who prefer not to publish their findings because they are not getting the results they want. We have a problem with violence, gangs, drugs, and wackos, but all empirical data disproves gun control theories. We need to stop trying to prevent a single symptom and fight the disease.

Yet another way to make arbitrary comparisons. USA: -homicide rate per 100,000 residents = 4.7 -gun ownership per 100 residents = 112.6 -total homicide (not just by gun) per firearm ratio = 1 homicide/24 guns Europe (all Eruopean countries totaled and averaged): -homicide rate per 100,000 residents = 2.45 -gun ownership per 100 residents = 13.58 -total homicide (not just by gun) per firearm ratio = 1 homicide/5.5 guns

Looks great when you compare to contries like Honduras, great goals. When you look at the current list of homicides per capita you will also see that the US is in level of many African countries that are in Civil war, same level as Albania which is basicly controlled by criminals. Other western countries are pretty much all found at 1.0 or lower. How about comparing to Europe then, with all the EU's praised gun control? Homicide rate per 100,000 residents according to most recent UNODC reports: Greenland 19.4 Russia 9.2 Lithuania 6.7 Moldova 6.5 Belarus 5.7 Estonia 5.0 Latvia 4.7 USA 4.7 Ukraine 4.3 How about some of our favorite vacation spots? U.S. Virgin Islands 52.6 Belize 44.7 Jamaica 39.3 Bahamas 29.8 Dominican Republic 22.1 Cayman Islands 14.7

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EWvgAM7ISmI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RCb1KnTEOlg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JNYPauf4sK4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4EMw_CpM8oo Do something about these guys, and I will melt down all my guns and make fishing lures out of them.

On March 23, 2010, Zheng Minsheng (郑民生)[7] 41, murdered eight children with a knife in an elementary school in Nanping,[8] Fujian province April 2010, another knife-wielding man named Chen Kangbing, 33 (陈康炳)[12] at Hongfu Primary School wounded 16 students and a teacher.[9] Chen Kangbing had been a teacher at a different primary school in Leizhou, but was on sick leave due to mental illness An attacker named Wu Huanming (吴环明), 48, killed seven children and two adults and injured 11 other persons with a cleaver at a kindergarten in Hanzhong, Shaanxi on May 12, 2010 On 4 August 2010, 26-year-old Fang Jiantang (方建堂) slashed more than 20 children and staff with a 60 cm knife, killing 3 children and 1 teacher, at a kindergarten in Zibo, Shandong province. August 2011, Eight children, all aged four or five, were hurt in Minhang District, Shanghai when an employee at a child-care centre for migrant workers slashed the children who were 3 to 4 years old with a box-cutter. In September 2011, a young girl and three adults taking their children to nursery school were killed in Gongyi,[25] Henan by 30-year-old Wang Hongbin with an axe. On 14 December 2012, a 36-year-old villager in the village of Chenpeng, Henan Province, stabbed 23 children and an elderly woman at the village's primary school as children were arriving for classes.

According to Wikipedia- A series of uncoordinated mass stabbings, hammer attacks, and cleaver attacks in the People's Republic of China in March 2010. The spate of attacks left at least 25 dead and some 115 injured. As most cases had no known motive, analysts have blamed mental health problems caused by rapid social change for the rise in these kinds of mass murder and murder-suicide incidents.

Knife-wielding attackers kill 29, injure 130 at China train station By Ralph Ellis, CNN Updated 10:20 PM ET, Sun March 2, 2014 Firearms are harder to get in China too.

Payback is a Medevac

Well since a common theme is to use the UK as an example of how successful gun control is, I though I would show what the crime trends have been since they implemented it. Back to the U.S., nothing can be done. Any control measure offered up by a gun owner to prevent violence is immediately dismissed as stupid, or an attempt to change the subject. Any attempt to grab guns just won't pass congress. No one is willing to give up anything, when it does nothing to solve the problem at hand. 98% of the population are sheep 1% of the population are sheep dogs 1% of the population are wolves Doesn't matter what any law says, or what the most readily accessible weapon is. There will always be wolves. Sometimes they may stand out, sometimes they may be disguised as the sheepdogs (police or military bad apples), but most of them are dressed in sheep's clothing. Example: Gun ownership by country - 1. USA 88.8 per 100 residents 2. Yemen 54.8 per 100 residents 3. Switzerland 45.7 per 100 residents 4. Finland 45.3 per 100 residents Highest international homiced rate per 100,000 residents 1. Honduras 91.6 2. El Salvador 69.2 3. Cote D'Ivoire 56.9 4. Jamaica 52.2 (# 103. USA 4.8) http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/A-Yearbook/2007/en/Small-Arms-Survey-2007-Chapter-02-annexe-4-EN.pdf "Homicide Statistics 2012". UNODC.

so my source makes claim that less guns does not equal less crime. your source makes claim less guns has nothing to do with crime rates. someone can surely find a source claiming guns cause all that is evil. we are still at an impasse.

OK offers a 5 year and 10 year. I think you have to start with the 5, the you can renew with the 10 year. No clue how often, or if they run a check to see if there is a reason to revoke them. I'm trying to conjur up an idea of a gun permit, just not has difficult to get as a CCW (so people don't fight it and it passes in congress), where you can take a Saturday and pick up a free application at your favorite gun shop. Fill in all your info, stop by Walmart and get a $10 passport photo, then take that to the Sherrifs office and give them $15 to finger print you. Leave them you app, photo, prints, and something like a hunter safety course certificate (but just a gun safety class) and a nominal processing fee. They send it in to your state investigative branch (OSBI, or TBI or whatever) and a couple weeks later you get your card. Either a separate card or an authorization on your drivers license. The idea is to do this at a state level, but all held to the same federal standard. Some states will have to give a little (NY) and some will have to take a little (TX). When you buy a gun, rather than a paper application and phone in NICS check, scan your card. Just like your drivers license, any disqualifier will automatically put an electronic hold or revocation on your card. Also at random, Fish and Game officer can see you out hunting and spot check you by calling in your card and seeing if it comes back clear, or if you just spent the weekend in the loony bin and they didn't realize you had a legally obtain gun when you were released. this is excellent - lots of people putting forth a "permit to purchase" type of idea. I like the idea of a gun safety course requirement as part of the vetting. the only bother for me is it could be leveraged into a defacto registration. I prefer it to be a blind system - it gives the authorization status (yes or no), but doesn't reverse the info to tell the gov what I purchased. Once I'm cleared to buy, at that point, then my property is not anyone's business. If the idea behind concealed carry is that it is supposed to be for defence and maybe to help deter crime, then that right should come with responsibility. With that I mean, mandatory training and annual recertification. If you cannot pass that, you do not get to carry your guns around in public. Obviously none of that will curb the easy availability of guns, which is a major issue with regards to gun crime, but maybe it will help in the response to the crime. I agree with you on this. Gun "ownership" isn't all self defense and paranoia like it is spun out to be. Yes many people who have them keep one accessible in their bedroom in case of a break in, but many people have them for sport shooting, competitions, hunting, and merely collecting them and never shooting them at all. The concept of CCW is to be able to defend yourself should you find yourself out in public when a homicidal loan gunman comes through. A very small percentage of the eligible population will even bother to obtain a CCW, and out of those who do, the chances of ever using your gun in a legitimate self defense situation are very slim. The premise is that neighborhoods where most people are thought to have a firearm in their bedroom will simply see less home invasions or break ins. Also, an area where CCW is popular, but no one knows who is and who isn't carrying, there will be less random robberies, rapes, car jacking, or assaults. I agree with recertification training as well. Anyone who does shoot handguns knows it isn't "easy". It takes traing and practice to be a "decent" shot with one. Law enforcement and military all quallify with their personal weapons on a regular basis to show that they have maintained proficiency. Failure to qualify leads to remedial training or finding a new profession.

Are they in question? I made a statement, was told it was bull, and provided to sources that led me to conclusion of that statement. You are just disagreeing with the conclusivness of the results those two sources came up with during their investigations. Prove it wrong.

Well, we can always continue with the cycle as it has been for the last 8 decades or so. To use what has been recently stated by another poster: -appalling tragedy -call for gun grab -scramble to grab what you can while you still can -gun sales increas -NRA support increases -conservative states relax gun laws -liberals grow frustrated and use increasingly dramatic jargon -red necks tout bumper stickers equating gun control to using both hands -cycle repeats "Keep doing what you've always done and you'll keep getting what you've always gotten" - Unknown

And what is the definition of violent attacks? And did that definition stay the same for the duration of that term? Murders, rapes, assaults causing serious bodily harm

So you think that every school, preschool and kindergarden should have an armed police officer on the premises on standby at all times? That will be - very expensive - only the best of best of police will considered for such an honorable cause - teaches children that they live with totalitarian overreaching government - the cop would be the first target of any assailant This is literally the only way to reduce the number guns in the population. How about you think of the future? But you are like lots of Americans, you only care for what is relevant for YOU right now. You obliviously don't care at all about the dead children of the future because it might mean minor inconvenience. Agree if enforceable. How do enforce those laws without giving up other rights like the 4th amendment? This is only enforceable by doing surprise visits to gun owners to check if they really comply. Making somebody indirectly responsible for anything is a very slippery slope and will lead great legal trouble.And rightly so. For this to even remotely work you would need national gun registry but you haven't thought of that have you? Agree, again only makes sense if enforceable. Who deems people ineligible for a firearm? Who enforces this? Where are they registered? Maybe you should think a little more about your "solutions". You know what would have most of those shootings? Decent mental health care and making it really difficult to buy firearms. Everything you've wrote is poorly thought out bullshit, as demonstrated. Many of our middle schools and high school already have an officer assigned to the school because of drugs and fights. There are 300 million guns in the population right now. Just stop selling them; nothing gets reduced. Laws are enforceable like EVERY other law, break it and something happens, you get caught and go to federal fuck you in the ass prison. Mental health professionals deem people unfit. How do you think people fail the NICS check for mental health problems now? But you are right. My ideas (which would probably pass congress) are rediculous and not worth giving it a try. Of course we know how effective passing gun control laws can be.

Talk about making stuff up! Thats a complete load of bull and i would love to know where you got that stat from? Actually I was being conservative in my numbers. It was 77% Handguns were banned in 1997. From 1997-2007, violent attacks increased by 77% http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html You guys are living in a delusion

I believe that scenario would come down to a matter of "general intent", similar to the criminal intent element of mens rea. The way we dumb it down for us Soldiers, is your intentions are judged based on your perception of the situation at the moment you pulled the trigger. With the threat of car bombs, unfortunately there are situations where a car is advancing toward your position at a high rate of speed and crosses your final fire protective line and in bitter hind sight, realize that the driver was late to work and having a bad day and thought he could just run a checkpoint. When you have a moral compass that points north, no punishment is necessary. There is a reason that on average 22 veterans commit suicide every day in America.

All states require dealers who sell fires for profit to obtain an FFL. All FFL dealers are required to call in a NICS check with the FBI and get a call back with a order to proceed with the sale and a confirmation number before the sale can be initiated. This same rule applies at all gun shows in the country. Many states now require that ALL private sales be made through a FFL mediator who conducts the NICS check for the seller. (You must enroll in NICS with your FFL number to use it) Some states still allow unchecked private sales. In these states a person who is a customer at a gun show can bring in a firearm, have it inspected and tagged at the door, and then make a private sale to another party within the gun show (gun show "loop hole"). The gun show doesn't really have anything to do with it because the private sale in those states can happen anywhere. BUT this is the important part about the private sale. Keep in mind that even with private sales, all local, state, and federal firearms laws apply, the biggest of these being that you cannot sell a firearm to felons, those who have been found guilty of domestic violence, or the mentally adjudicated. If you sell to somebody in one of those three categories and you are found out, then you will be punished in accordance with the law. For making private sales, your friends and family will be your best and safest option. If you knowing sell to, or have reason to believe someone you are selling to is on the prohibited list, you are committed a fellony with mandatory minimum sentences and fines, and the possibility of being held responsible to some degree of any crimes committed by that person with the gun you sold them.

I meant kid and it was autocorrected to God, which is hilarious to me. These simple laws don't really "restrict" gun rights or gun ownership so the Constitutional argument is kept out of it, I believe. Also, it would have stopped this 11 from being able to operate a shotgun

Arm all teachers? No A uniformed police officer assigned duty at the school? Why not -Teaches kids to respect police -Deters drugs, fights, bullying -Builds on very successful community policing model Make it harder to purchase a gun? No -Guns are already out there. Ban sales and they are still present Strict safe storage laws? Yes -You are held liable for crimes committed by your gun -People want to sue the manufacturer or FFL dealer because a third part offender used the gun illegally. Trigger locks and slide locks are provided as mandated by law, so make it a law to USE them -Certain guns, or a certain number of guns should require the use of an approved safe -Failuremof this resulting in unauthorized use of your gun in a crime is your responsibility. You charges like accessory, criminal negligence, manslaughter. Why do you go to jail for killing someone while driving drunk, but not if your God takes your gun and kills someone else? Safe ammunition storage? Yes -Guns require ammo -Ammo should be locked up separately from the firearms Your rights guaranteed when your house mate has a mental condition? No. -If someone in your household has been deemed to be a liability, you can still own firearms, but must keep them stored (properly and with trigger/slide locks)'at a friend or relatives house who is eligible to possess firearms These are all some solutions that I can think of off the top of my head, that I strongly believe would have prevented at least some of these mass shooters from doing what they did. They can't legally obtain a gun, and these proposals would have stopped them from getting them in the manner in which they did. All control measures failing, an armed officer pulling a rotational shit in the school that day (Sandy Hook) could possible have stopped Lanza before he shot his first victim, having been alerted by Lanza shooting his way through the class at the frount door. All of these are possible solutions the the crazy mass shooter that don't require me to give up anything or jump through any hoops. Therefore, there would be no reason for me to give half a thought of wanting to oppose it. I use the locks supplied with my guns. I put my ammo in a trunk with a lock on it. If I have a lot of guns I get a safe that protects them from theft and fire and use the safe for family documents and random other crap my wife makes me jam in there. What would be wrong with any of this?

You will also note that that article was from the UK. The U.K. banned all hand guns and severally restricted most long guns as the result of a school shooting. As a result, the rate of violent crime has increased by 74% and the number one weapon of choice has become the common kitchen knife. There is a group of Doctor advocating to put a ban on long and pointy knives in the UK.

This is such a bullshit argument. The entire point about firearms is how good they are at their job and that's why they need regulation. I didn't hear anything about the military giving you guys bread knives when you were deployed to attack your enemies with... You've said that your guns are securely locked up. These fuckwit parents and others like them are people who are doing your corner the damage. Gun rights advocates should be MORE pissed off than gun control ones in cases like this... They're letting your team down. That would show a level of sanity which could be a basis for negotiation, but instead all we ever hear is 'it's not the guns fault', or 'ban cars'. It's like talking with children... I tell you what. You want access to guns. You PROVE to me that you can be responsible with them and that you're serious about making others with them responsible... Guns are good at killing. Logical reasoning would suggest that if you take guns away from law abiding citizens, but criminals still have them, then criminals will have a really efficient way of killing innocent people while innocent people will have no chance of defending themselves. On the plus side, domestic killings with knives will increase while domestic killings with guns may decrease. In the military we had ground attack aircraft providing close air support, close combat attack aviation (rotary wing), artillery, tanks, belt fed fully automatic grenade launching machine guns (MK 19), shoulder fired anti tank missiles and all the way down to nonleathal rubber bullets in our Mossburg 500 shotguns. Every gun sold in the U.S. comes from the factory with a trigger lock, slide lock, or action lock included. In my opinion, if you buy a gun, you are responsible for that gun. If your kid shoots himself by accident, it is your fault for allowing the situation to happen. If someone uses your gun in a crime, you are an accessory to that crime. You hear dumb shit from unarticulated gun people trying to counter dumb shit said by overreacting gun grabbers that are pushing for stuff that messes with my guns, but does nothing to fix he problems surrounding gun violence. When I buy a gun a PROVE I am responsible when my background check comes back clean of any disqualifying factors, a complete lack of any criminal history beyond a traffic ticket, and my track record of never having failed to maintain positive control of my guns.