obelixtim

A pilot chute and SL essentially perform the same function when a parachute - any parachute, military or otherwise is deployed..... Gravity works the same way for all...or so every skydiver I know, civilian or military, thinks so anyway. Does it work differently where you are? Rigs, both military and sport, SL or FF, don't differ that much in basic design and principle of operation. You can SL a sport rig and step off the ramp of a Herc. It will work. The parachute will deploy cleanly, clear of the jumper, with either system...whether face to earth or upright. The body drops below the deploying parachute in either situation At NO point did I say looking over your shoulder was the wrong thing to do...in fact I clearly stated that I train students to do exactly that. Can you point out exactly where I disagreed with that, or said anything different?... Is a head up body position on deployment dangerous in your view?. Its only the third time I've asked you that. Very simple question...you seem to struggle to come up with a simple yes or no. I assume you are not familiar with the Terry Gardiner Wonderhog deployment photos, (Hence no comment from you) which I suggested showed a perfectly clean and safe deployment in a head up position. ( he's probably close to, if not 45 degrees to the horizontal). Its quite a famous series of 5 or so shots, which I'm sure many people are familiar with...you asked for a reference to such a photo. I gave it. Again, I was never giving advice to STUDENTS about checking their canopy in a different way. I'm very well aware how people, especially low timers, can misinterpret information. I was giving advice to a jumper with 170 jumps how pitching properly and adopting a slightly head up position while doing so, COULD help PREVENT hesitations in the first place. I would expect him to be quite capable of using, OR disregarding, that advice as he sees fit. Nothing to do with checking the canopy. That would come later as per the USUAL method. I'm not quite sure why you are so seemingly het up about my posts, but I suspect it stems from previous posts I've made about open canopy fatalities and injuries.... As far as slagging me off as being dangerous, stupid and a couple of other not very nice things, I don't think personal attacks further the discussion very well. I'm a big boy and can handle that, so fill your boots, if you think that is effective....It just doesn't complement your points very well. Would you be so keen to say those things face to face?.... Anyway it sounds like the OP might be on the right track, so thats gotta be good. My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Actually, thinking about it, if the Paras go out of the tailgate of a Herc for example, they are back to the relative wind, the canopy is blown over their heads by the prop blast. So thats even more extreme than the scenario of a head up in FF deployment. My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

You are absolutely correct, but the point I am making is that the parachutes still deploy above their heads as they drop below the open canopy. They are effectively standing up with the parachute deploying almost, but not quite, straight up behind their heads. I.E. the bag, lines, and parachute effectively deploy in a manner that is on much more of an angle than if they were belly to earth or even sitting up 45 degrees relative to the horizon. Big Noise was saying such a deployment could cause a lot of problems....I'm saying thats not necessarily so. But I expect him to jump all over the same point....

T A short bridle cord could also be a problem as well, but it can be overcome with a positive throw of the PC in the first place.... If the deployments have been OK for all his other jumps, and he hasn't changed his way of packing, closing the container, or his PC, or any other components, then it might just have been a lazy dump.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

You failed to answer my question, so I'll repeat it. Is a head up body position during parachute deployment dangerous?. Simple question, simple answer, yes or no. And I've made it quite clear that I was not referring in any way to students or their training. Perhaps you didn't notice that in your haste to get the flamethrower lit up.... I'm not able to post pictures or clips with the computer I'm using at the moment., not that I don't want to. But, and this goes back to when throw out pilot chutes were invented...one example There was a series of shots that came out maybe 30 years ago, of Terry Gardiner deploying the new fangled Wonderhog, I think you'll find the sequence in Skies Call 2 or 3. Take a look at his body position. It was also printed on T shirts like a film strip of the deployment sequence. Maybe you've never seen CRW jumpers deploying. Or SL and early FF students deploying after a strut dangle. Or paratroopers exiting aircraft since before WW2. None of them seem to adopt a flat body to earth position. They must all be doing it wrong. Quick, alert the relevant authorities. I'm sure they'll listen to you... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Keep in mind that the forces can vary quite a bit, depending on whether the PC "snatches" the bag out as in would with a terminal deployment, or whether it is a slow, sustained pull, as would be more likely during a sub terminal deployment. Something that is of much greater concern if there isn't much altitude to play with.... 38 - 40 lbs though, seems quite high to me.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Didn't I see some photo of a monster tucking into a pizza which was inside a burger?.... The pizza burger..... He had large fries with it, but being health conscious, ordered a diet coke to go with it..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I totally agree, and thats how I train my students..... Hey, I'm not looking for a shitfight here, And I'm aware of the danger giving advice that can be taken the wrong way, But, my reply to the OP as you may recall, simply asks him "Did you look". It was a specific question directed at a jumper with 170 odd jumps already under his belt, who should have a better idea of what to do than appears to be the case.. I suggested a way of altering the airflow over his body in a slightly different way, which can be incorporated into the wave off and pitch action, that would likely minimise the chances of a hesitation. At no time did I suggest to the skydiving world changing the time honoured method of checking for a PC hesitation was a good idea, and especially not for students. For more experienced jumpers, especially with a HP canopy, keeping the shoulders level during deployment minimises the chance of a snakey opening...Nothing wrong with being in a head up position after pitching. Most jumpers would be putting their arms forward after pitching.....even Chuck, though he says no..... There is nothing dangerous in being in a head up position during deployment, and it sure beats being head down, on your side, or on your back..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Sorry I can't post pictures or clips....but just to clarify a point. Are you saying that being in a head up body position during deployment of a parachute is somehow dangerous?. My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Hi tech lawnmower..... I know quite a few Ag pilots who spend their lives at low level, albeit not in aything that fast. I asked one how close he can get to the ground before his estimate of height becaomes guesswork. He reckoned about 10 feet off the deck is about the best he can accurately estimate. Of course this is not in level flight, its a swoop in a plane. I'm picking that pilot in the vid didn't plan on getting as close as he did.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Saw a Hawker Sea Fury right up the backside of a DH Vampire at an airshow one time. The Sea Fury had serious wheels, and sounded even better....Would love to take one of them for a blast... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

You might have noticed me saying "I prefer to do this", and that the traditional method is as valid as it has ever been. I'm not into giving advice that is likely to hurt people or cause problems.... The OP has about 170 jumps or so...I would expect him to be able to modify his opening sequence to prevent hesitations, which is what I was suggesting to him....adjusting your body position as you dump to prevent hesitations. I'm surprised after 170 jumps he seems unaware of what to do, although he's obviously done it successfully most times. I wasn't advocating a true sitting position nor throwing in a backloop or anything radical.. Its basically adopting the position the canopy pulls you into as it deploys anyway... The normal track off, flare, wave, then pitch puts your body basically into the position I am talking about. Its almost one continuous movement. I bet if you watch yourself on video, thats prolly what you will see.... Anyway, the point is really about pitching properly in the first place. My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I'm aware of that, but I wanted HIM to answer the question... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Only if its followed by the next error of not doing a proper line check which should take all of about 5 seconds, and NOT doing is inexcusable...... Once the canopy and lines are clear you can be pretty rough packing, and still get an open canopy most times... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I didn't actually mean going to a sitfly position. After pitching, arms forward and tucking the knees in a little will pitch the body up. (About 45 degrees into a bit of a backsliding position). This is a good position to be in when then going for your handles. Your head is also pointing in the right direction to see the next sequence of events. Going from flat to head down, also gives a chance of an entanglement with the legs, and also can give a snappy opening as you get the big flick.... Another advantage is it keeps your shoulders square and even. (I wasn't sure what sort of canopy he was jumping, not a biggie on a student canopy, but something smaller and faster might make for a different opening experience..) As you say, the method taught for clearing a hesitation for generations is still valid, but I've seen it not work if done lazily, with a pilot chute just sitting on the butt... Both methods work, I prefer sitting up a little.... Pitching the pilot chute vigorously is the lesson to absorb.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Sounds like maybe you had a hesitation, from not throwing your pilot chute out properly, and just dumped it into your burble. If you sit up after throwing, it will normally clear a hesitation. Did you have a look before dumping your reserve?, because you don't mention doing so.... So how did you deal with the downplane....chop the main?, or sort it out.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Firstly, what happened to you would be pretty unusual, I would think, and while there are prolly people around who are mixing intoxicants and skydiving, I'm not sure its prevalent on many DZ's. during operations. People are usually pretty good at covering their tracks, so it might be pretty difficult to do much about, unless someone is obviously under the influence. Then I think it is fair to speak to them first, and take it further if necessary. You can only be vigilant up to a point. If its blatant and nothing is done, time to find a new DZ. If anyone who is dealing with students are involved, it has to be stopped, right there and then, however you do it. The effects of intoxicants are increased if we travel to altitude in an aircraft. There can be no compromises if safety is at risk. My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Good post Meryl....hopefully people learn something from it... Too many people think they are invincible.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

* 1. Bet the guy under canopy got a rush......as well. What bright spark came up with barrel rolling to clear your airspace in the first place?.... It concerns me that there are people out there advocating this nonsense, which flies in the face of proven breakoff procedures..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

You have much to learn, young skywalker.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I think you'd be better off tracking like hell, scanning while you do so....avoiding anyone BELOW you.... A barrel roll doesn't do anything for horizontal separation.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

I can see the headline..."Golf cart damaged after unprovoked attack on ruff tuff skydiver".... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

There was some old guy in England who claimed to be an ex Para, had a uniform, medals etc, and went out collecting money for charity(which he did present to charities) as well as marching on rememberance day. He was outed after appearing in a newspaper story, which told his "story" but was quickly recognised by real ex Paras to be lies. (Colour Sergeant, service in Northern Ireland and the Falklands). He was never gonna get away with it... I think the cops spoke to him and told him if he wore the uniform in public again he would be charged. Obviously someone with a Walter Mitty complex, but it pissed off the real servicemen.....I think a few were ready to pay him a visit.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Is that a birdie, eagle or albatross?.... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

Focus your energy on staying healthy..... My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....