CanuckInUSA

This is an old thread and I haven't read through it. If they are still breathing and their pulse is okay and it's the type of fullface helmet which can not be opened without moving the victims head, then: 1) DO NOT TOUCH the helmet. 2) Call for an ambulance. 3) Get yourself or someone you trust to stablize the head. 4) Monitor the victim. 5) Wait for the ambulance. 6) Monitor the victim. 7) Get a neck brace on them. 8) Monitor the victim. 9) Get qualified people to put the victim on a backboard. 10) Continue to monitor the victim on the way to the hospital. The key here is that the victim is still breathing (even if it is shallow breaths) and their pulse is okay. You risk doing them harm by trying to remove the helmet. I am not the sharpest crayon in the box. But I'm not dull either. I was a volunteer ski patroller for 3 years and a pro patroller for another year at a major ski resort (Lake Louise in Alberta) and I have had to deal with some nasty shit. I was trained in the priorities of first aid and your victim as stated above is still doing fine. Now if they go into cardiac arrest and stop breathing, well all bets are off and the helmet comes off (as carefully as possible). Also, guys like skymedic have the training to perform cricothyroidotomies, but how many of us know how to do this? I don't and I was a ski patroller ... mind you that was a good 14 years ago and things may have changed for patrollers since then. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

You're probably right. And I likely just had my "Stef" blinders on. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

You must be speaking of Stephanie. She's a cutie alright, but I haven't seen her since Memorial Day. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

I'd be happy to be pimped out to the PMS. Drunk Dialing? That's a whole different can of worms. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

I'm coming off of an injury. I started jumping four weekends ago after a one month layoff and believe it or not I went BASE jump before I went skydiving because my BASE canopy is more than twice the size of my skydiving canopy and I know I can get softer landings with it (plus I was jumping the legal span in ID during the day with it's somewhat more forgiving LZ rather than a LZ full of nasty stuff). Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Phone numbers of those who'd jump with me and/or date me (or at least some revealing pictures) of the PMS. Or am I on the wrong website making this request? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

LOL ... have you been caught with your foot in your mouth more than once Jib'ber? Not to fret, we've all been there ... and it's worse when we've been drinking the evil sauce all the religous folks tell us to avoid (Dang did I just put my foot in my mouth ... again?). If you can get to the post within a reasonable amount of time, you can delete it yourself. Otherwise you need to rely on a Greenie to help you out. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

I'm actually going to be in Calgary that weekend. But unfortunately I'm going to be there for some mandatory relative work so it's not known if I could find some time away from the fam-dam-ily to go make some jumps (I can always ask them how they feel about me going off for a few hours and get a jump in or two ... and Friday could be a better option as these fam-dam-ily members will be off working when I arrive in town). So maybe you'll see me there and maybe you won't. I met a few Calgary people at last year's Eloy Holiday Boogie so they will know me and maybe can introduce me to you (if I'm there and they are there). Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

I have my A, B and D. In hindsight had I known at the time that I would have had my D (while it was still only 200 jumps) soon after I got my B (plus I got my B because I thought I needed it for night jumps, but I really only needed to be B qualified), I never would have gotten the B in the first place. Now as far as my D is concerned, I have only ever needed it once, but I'm glad I had it. My D was required in order to jump at the Wildwood PST 4th of July Beach Boogie earlier this year and I had a great time there because of it. Without the D I never would have made the trip. ACME should do her water training (after all this is a good thing to have), but she doesn't actually need to apply for the B License as long as she has an A. Most DZs just want you to be B qualified for the sort of jumps a B will let her do. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

JC is one cool cat for those who are ever so lucky to meet him and talk to him and why should someone like Bruno be upset and/or surprised that JC recently set a swooping distance record (and yes I'm sure JC has had his share of crashes, but he's also one hell of a good canopy pilot because of it). Hmmm ... how long will it take before a Greenie moves this thread into the canopy forum or better yet, the Speakers forum. Maybe I should just bug out of here and do some work. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

LOL ... I guess I was one of the guilty people talking about aerodynamics the other night and I have only three things to say about that: 1) Some of us are pretty passionate when it comes to flight. 2) I was drunk (too much Te-Kill-Ya in the system) and felt a little combative. 3) I was primarily responding to Steel's claims that a canopy always stalls at the same finite point every time whereas I was saying that a wing can stall at any airspeed and at any attitude and flight in general let alone stalls is a very much dynamic thing-a-ma-bob. Personally I'd like to know why the FJCs don't spend the time on basic aerodynamics and how they relate to canopy flight (it's amazing how many people don't know it). But that's for another day. If you're really looking for Entertainment, then hang out in the Speakers Forum. Sometimes I can be seen posting in there as well, but hopefully I'm not considered a regular. Back to your regular scheduled programming. Post Whore to your heart's contempt. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Thanks for the info Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Cheney is a Dick. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

I could have worded things a tad better, but WTF do you think I meant by abrupt maneuvers. Now I have no arguments about digging it out of the corner as you are correct in how you explained things and rear riser landings are when we are at the highest risk of high speed stalls. But you are dead wrong about not being able to fly you canopy backwards and I'd love to hear to try to explain to Jimmy and Marta that you can not fly a canopy backwards because guess what? Either one of them will huck themselves off of an object and show you how it's done. Now do we need to fly our skydiving canopies backwards? No ... but it is a life save survival maneuver in the BASE world. BASE canopies and skydiving canopies have different aspect ratios, and thus doing this is easier on a BASE canopy. But a canopy is still a canopy. As far as your comments about a finite stall point, my aviation background just doesn't buy this. But as I said earlier, I am not a canopy GURU and I'd prefer to not make a comment on this, as who knows ... I could be wrong ... and I am after all still a student of flight. But I will always defend my stance that a wing can stall at any air speed and at any attitude. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

I have Chuck and Ian in my sights (albeit at a great distance right now) and when I start beating their sorry asses on the PST, then it'll be time to not listen to them (and better yet steal Chuck's lunch money). But in the meantime, these two blokes are qualified PST members and I'm not (I figure it'll take me hundreds and hundreds of more jumps to get there, if I get there at all). And until that time, when they say something on these forums, I can only do myself some credit by listening to them. Swooping rocks!!! I hope I don't crater. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

No A ... heck you can even be a student there ... 13000 to 13500 AGL (I think their field elevation is around 1300 MSL). Also during the Holiday Boogie they do offer high altitude jumps out of their King Air and they do provide you with oxygen for those jumps (was it 21000 or 23000 feet AGL). Very cool jumps to make. There are two landing areas and then there is the dessert. The main landing area is east/west only and you must follow the first person down. The alternate landing area is any direction, but you should still follow the first down there as well. During the Holiday Boogie there is usually tons of traffic in the air, so keep your head on a swivel and don't even think about trying to be the first person down. Last year I thought I was going to set the pattern as me and another guy landed virtually at the same time (going opposite directions), but little did I know that there was another guy lingering from a load prior to mine and he landed the other way. So I was wrong and Betsy ever so graciously scoulded me. Don't try to be the first one down as someone else has already beaten you to it. If you can cross-wind it, the main landing area is open to you, but keep in mind that there are world class jumpers (many of whom are swooping) and doing stupid things in the main landing area (well really in both landing areas) will bring you the wrath of Bryan Burke (an awesome guy when you've been good, but a bad guy when you've done stupid shit). Eloy is on top of every thing. It's very impressive to watch how tight a ship they run. This depends on what aircraft are flying and at what time of year you're there. An Otter and Skyvan (their main work horse aircraft) hold 23 jumpers each. So 23 times the number of aircraft in the air concurrently. Brains says 22 not 23. One of us is wrong (it could be me), but it really doesn't matter. You get the picture. They have these deals where you buy 12 tickets (what is it again $200) and you must use them within a two day period and you can not transfer the tickets between friends. If you can not use the tickets for what ever reason you can always upgrade them to (what is it again) the regular single ticket price of $18.50 if my memory serves me correct. Plus Eloy is really cool about refunding unused tickets (once they are upgraded) and I don't mind leaving the DZ with unused tickets as it leaves me with an incentive to come back. Holiday Boogie tickets are cheaper ($15 this year?) During non-boogie times, you can do hop n' pops and it's not uncommon to see 4-way teams doing these to practice their exits. But if things get too busy (as they do during the boogie) then there will be no hop n' pop opportunities (unless you're dealing with a low ceiling and the only loads which are flying are hop n' pops). During the Holiday boogie there will be a seminar on a different topic every night. During non-boogie dates that all depends on what's going. But the DZ has world class coaches and their time is worth every penny. The Holiday Boogie is a great time to be there, but any time (out side of the hot summer months with their dust devils) is a good time to be at Eloy. Night times does get chilly and last year we experienced some cool temps during the boogie as well and some of us nicknamed it the "Ice Boogie". As long as you're licensed, have an in date reserve and are a current USPA member, you're good to go right now. Eloy Rocks!!! One other comment here. Don't miss your load. Eloy will send the airplane regardless of whether or not you are on it. And you can't get your ticket back once they've put the load on a 15 minute call. So be careful not to try to shuffle things with your friends on different loads. Oh and did I forget to mention that ... Eloy Rocks!!! Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

I have no issues with what you said and am pretty much in agreement. I will step away from our/my thread hiijacking efforts now. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Okay I said bedtime, but I caught this. There is a huge difference between beyond, and the point in which a wing will stall. There is no argument that a wing will not generate lift beyond it's dynamic lift limit. It's like saying I'm in a stall situation when my airspeed is less than Vso. Well dah??? (sarcasism not directed at Jakee), what is the purpose of Vso if we don't pay attention to it. If we fly at less than Vso, our wings will NOT be able to generate lift no matter how much we try and wish for them to do so. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Are we fighting or are we in agreement? Unless I'm mistaken (I'm ultra tired and need sleep) everything you've posted here backs up what I have said and again unless I'm mistaken, I agreed that the AOA can influence inducing a stall (how can I argue that?). But the AOA is NOT the cause of a stall. A stall is the result of the disruption of the flow of air over the wing's surface regardless of the air speed or the AOA. Why not the AOA? Look at a fighter jet and how it's thrust can propel it straight up into the sky and over come the other negative components of flight - drag and gravity. I don't think we're disagreeing here ... or are we? ... maybe we're just talking different apples and oranges ... maybe ... I don't know? That's it, I'm done ... my pillow beckons me ... flame away ... I'll be here in the morning ... or was that in only a few short hours from now. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

I got one ... but it's not that gory. About 7-8 weeks ago (while the testosterone was flowing freely) I decided to downwind it at our DZ through our swoop course (7-9 mph downwind in the hot thin air of CO) with NO FEAR. I actually did a decent job of it and didn't crater. I ran it out and got cheers from the spectators. The problem was that ... while I did run it out ... I got hurt. I think I suffered some sort of stress fracture (I don't know ... if I'm not really hurt or sick ... I avoid doctors ... I know my bad). Anyway the downwind aspect to this landing wasn't my mistake. The NO FEAR aspect was a huge mistake and I got lucky in that I only missed 4 weekends of jumping. And if you can believe it, I went BASE jumping before I returned to skydiving because my BASE canopy is more than twice the size of my skydiving canopy. Please remember that even the most experienced swooper (not me) is capable of messing themselves up and a 100 jump wonder is a million times more likely to get messed up than the experienced guy. Swooping rocks!!! I hope I don't crater. Have fun, be safe, don't be an incidents report. We're not trying to keep you from becoming good. We're trying to [knock knock] remind you that you are a crater incident waiting to happen if you're not smart. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Well 57% of us were right (or was that got lucky) and 15% couldn't give a rats ass about hockey. I'm happy we (my fellow Canucks) won, we got to see some good hockey. But something was missing this time around (emotionally ... at least for me being in the US of A which did a piss poor job of covering the tournament). I don't know if it was the pending lock out, the fact that Canada does not have a strong rivalry with Finland the way we have one with Russia, the USA and even the Czechs. That I'm now a skydiver and BASE jumper (when I wasn't one during the last Olympics) or something else? Maybe it's just like in '91 when we were expected to win as I felt kind of empty then as well. But '72, '76, '81 (we got pummeled), '84, '87, '96 (we lost this one), '98 (stupid way to end a game) and '02 meant way more to me than '04. I think it was the lock out. Fuck the NHL if they don't want to play. After 4 years as a Colorado Avalanche season ticket holder (Remster can attest to the good seats I used to have), I'm done and good riddance I saw. Let's start watching some college games. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Hey Collin what's up bud? Got your video to show our newest swooper? By the way ... you have shown very good judgement with your experiences. And as long as you remember how close you came to becoming "one of them", you won't "become one of them". And if you (or I) become one of them, well, we'll still love you, just as long as you are still one of us (the living). Good job bud ... I'm impressed and I'd jump with you any day ... assuming of course you'd jump with me. Swooping rocks!!! I just hope I don't crater. By the way, I'll be in Perris Valley this coming weekend working with Jim. I'd love to have a brew with you at the end of the day if you're around (I'll buy). Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Dude you just brushed off a very talented and experienced skydiver with that response. We're trying to help you. You don't really know how small of a community we are? One day you will meet some of us, and having the wrong attitude now isn't going to help you later. You can choose to ignore us, that's your call. But it's your ass, not ours. Swooping rocks. But I hope I don't crater. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Jakee I'm not making this post to slam you. But (unless I'm mistaken about canopy flight versus a normal wing ... and if a more experienced and reputable canopy pilot wants to step in, in case I say the wrong things ... Chuck ... Jim ... Ian ... Tim where are you?) I think we need to clear up a few things here. No argument here ... landing with your feet close to the ground with minimal horizontal and vertical speed is the ultimate goal and the sign of a good canopy pilot (no matter what the WX conditions are). I believe I have already beaten "what causes a wing to stall" with a dead horse. But lets look at things a different way. You are in the middle of your surf landing (some people call it a swoop). You have arrested all your vertical decent. What happens next? Don't even think about the ground winds as it doesn't matter when we're talking about the vertical component (you could be jumping into a strong 20 mph head wind or hauling ass 20 mph downwind ... hope you know how to tuck and roll), your canopy only cares about it's air speed in order to stay aloft. At some point in time (since we are not using any thrust ... what are the four components of flight? Thrust, Lift, Drag and Gravity), you will lose enough air speed and the air flow across the top of your wing will be disrupted and your canopy will stall and in most cases (assuming you're not hauling ass downwind) you will touch down for a very nice landing and the spectators applaud you for a job well done. You have just stalled your canopy and it (the canopy) wasn't all deformed as you thought it needed to be. It bleed off enough airspeed so as to disrupt the smooth flow of air across the top of the wing. Now let's change things. You're surfing again and "X" number of feet (but still a reasonable distance away from you), a dog runs in front of your intended touch down zone. What do you do? Some people will say do a flared turn. And if you have enough air speed, this is an option. But if you're at at the end of your swoop, guess what? The air above your wing is likely to get disrupted and you're much more likely to stall your canopy before you'd like it to stall and you will touch down faster than you wanted to and it also may be a harder touch down than it should have been (flare turns are cool, but make sure they are not done at the end of your swoop). A better option might be to shut things down early. But this is not an easy thing to do for someone who doesn't know their canopy (and I know the theory better than I could actually demostrate it). But what you need to do is to slowly (to not generate too much lift and pop up into the air) but authoritatively apply more toggle input, change the form of your wing and induce a stall before it was likely going to stall all by itself. If done well, your landing may be a tad harder and faster than you'd like it to be, but guess what? You're going to stop in front of that dog and the crowd is still going to cheer you again (and Rover will be licking your ankles obliviuos to his almost demise because all he wants to do in life is chase that ball for one hour straight ... I've seen it). Now as a Colorado jumper, I often talk about our fast landings and our abrupt stall conditions. Now why is this? Well the obvious answer is that our air is thinner, there are less molecules and we can't generate enough lift to maintain the same swoop as we could at sea level (and the need to learn how to complete your flare to maximize your vertical descent is paramount when jumping in high altitude conditions with a small canopy). But why is this? Well with less air, our canopies cut through the skies faster but they also stall at faster airspeeds all because the flow of air across the wing's surface is not enough to maintain the wing's lift. Airplane pilots (hopefully) know to check the Pilot's Operating Handbook for the aircraft we fly as we know the manufacturers have supplied us with some valuable information as to what will happen to our flight characteristics at various altitudes, at various wing loadings and at various temperatues. But unfortunately the same information is not provided to skydiving community. But the exact same environmental conditions exists no matter what wing we are flying. So we are left to learn the flight characteristics of the wings we fly on our own usually requiring hundreds and hundreds of jumps on each canopy (preferrable up high before we bring them down low to the ground). Of course the same rules don't apply to 100 jump wonders as they already know it all (this last comment was not directed at Jakee, but instead to all of the 100 jump wonders that we know and love and know that some of us were also 100 jump wonders at some point in time in our short and yes dangerous skydiving careers). Finally ... what makes rear riser swoops so dangerous for people ... who first don't understand aerodynamics ... but also may not have good subtle canopy control? Rear riser swoops are dangerous because the likelyhood that we'll induce a stall is much higher. 1) I hate to beat a dead horse, but why does a wing stall? Because the flow of air above the wing gets disrupted. 2) Every wing has a minimal stalling airspeed. All wings can not fly below a certain minimal airspeed ... no matter what. 3) Abrupt attitude changes used in conjuction to the relative wind can cause enough disruption of the flow of air across the wing, and it will stall. So back to rear riser swoops. At some point in time, without changing the wing's form (we don't change the wing's forms when we pull down on the rear risers, but we do change the wings form when we apply toggles much in the same was the form of the wing is changed when the flaps on an airplane are extended), the wing on a rear riser landing will stall before the wing with toggle input will stall. But what makes things dangerous for Mr Hot-shot-I-want-to-impress-the-girls swooper is that if the canopy pilot is too abrupt with their rear riser input, they can disrupt the flow of air across the top of the canopy, stalling the wing and guess what? We've now compounded two stall inducing scenarios into one and we're calling 911 instead of heading off to bed with the girl(s). If what I have said is wrong (corrected by a reputable canopy pilot), please correct me (I'm a little drunk at the moment and it took a while to write this message), and I still consider myself a student of flight. But what I have said so far (with the exception of rear riser landings) is part of the basics of aerodynamics and it shoud be applied to fixed wings as well as canopies. I didn't make this shit up. It's aerodynamics 101 or should I say "Aerodynamics for Dummies". I may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but I'm not dull. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over