Marinus

I think you should really read better: The core of my opinion on the matter is: I consider the twelve steps to be nonsensical, but they might have a placebo effect on people who believe in it. And if people are helped by it, I've no problem with that, but it isn't my cup of tea. Then Coreece says I'm actually doing the twelve steps myself in my attempt to quit smoking. I disagree, and might I say, I do so with proper argumentation. Then Coreece tries to force the 12 steps down my throat anyway. So Coreece is the one who can't understand that I don't want anything to do with the crypto Christian nonsense of the AA, and that some people do things their way ( Like in my case, just man up and quit smoking) So Popsjumper: You've got a point here, you're just not talking to the right person. Go bother Coreece, not me. When someone suggest religion to me, the first time I refuse it with a "No thanks" and if that message isn't clear enough, the next time I'll tell them to shove it. When I'm older and wiser, I'll probably get mature enough to make ad hominems just like you do here. For all you "enlightened" babble, you surely lack proper discussion skills. Ad hominems are the lowest form of discussion, thanks for proving you're inferior to someone who tells others to shove it.

Your advise was helpful, I'll admit that, but other then that what got me here was for 95% me. I'm thankful for the support I got on the way here, but the one who really deserves the credit for not smoking is me. Step one is just crypto-Christian self-loathing, and I don't do that myself. I'm not powerless and I prove that with every day I don't smoke. I think it's time to ignore you again. Have a good day, but don't bother boring me with your "wisdom" any more

I know dozens op people who successfully quit smoking, and they did it by different methods. None of them used a 12 steps program. And the chances that I will use it are slim to. For that to happen I need to relapse and have a brain malfunction that makes it impossible for me to distinguish between BS and reality. Until that happens,you can take your twelve steps including your higher power and shove them into a place where the sun doesn't shine and the air quality is less then optimal.

I'm sorry you're such an old and bitter man.

Okay I'll bite, and apply the twelve steps to my smoke cessation: 1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. The fact that I stopped proves I'm not powerless against smoking, and while I was/am addicted, my life wasn't unmanageable because of my smoking 2) Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. No, I mostly got really tired of smoking. 3) Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. I took matters in my own hand, and threw away my cigarettes. 4) Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. I see my smoking as stupid, pathetic, expensive and unhealthy, but not as immoral. 5) Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. I only had to admit to myself that I was/am addicted. It helps to admit it to others too. And see step 4) there were no other wrongs 6) Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. I'm not ready, nor expecting that God will remove the defects in character that caused my smoke addiction. If fact I assume those defects will be part of me for the rest of my life. 7) Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. I'm proud for each day I do without smoking despite the fact that I'm an addict. Yes, it goes easy this time, but I doubt it's because He removed my shortcomings. 8) Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. I've always been a very considerate smoker, and I don't think that smelling like an ash tray for 17 years is enough to apologize to people for. 9) Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. It isn't needed to make amends. Well, maybe to people that fall victim to my somewhat explosive moods that accompany withdrawal. I usually do that on the spot. 10)Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. see 8 11) Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. The first step That's semi-relevant to me: I do use self-hypnosis. However, that's me manipulating me into not smoking. And since I know for a fact that I'm not a higher power, the rest of the step doesn't apply to me. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. Spiritual awakening? my a$$, an while I will support people that try to quit or want to quit smoking, I most certainly wont be the one that'll bother them with the nonsense of step 1 to 11 1/2. Yes it helps that people, including you guys support me, and I really appreciate that, but you aren't a higher power, and you most certainly won't do the quitting for me. In the end it'll be me that decides to not light a cig whenever I crave one.

I'm sorry you can't apply basic logic.

I think there's sufficient input from my side. But to directly answer your question: I consider the AA to be a placebo of sorts, it works *) by the power of suggestion. other then that it's utter BS. *) or does it? The data about the effectiveness of the AA program are shady at best. The more outspoken sources seem to indicate that the AA is hardly effective.

Thank you for contradicting yourself to the point I really don't have to say anything any more. And then there's basic logic of course, people who stopped drinking are able to quit drinking. People who aren't able to quit, don't stop drinking. Not really, the higher power has to be non-imaginary. That's about it. Oh, and people who claim their AA gang is there higher power: well the AA group isn't imaginary but it isn't really a "higher power". The higher power can be about anything, anyway, and this really is a powerful signal that it is in fact imaginary.

You're a non-believer, right? Did you ever read the 12 steps? If your BS-detector didn't get ballistic over those, you really need to do the course "Scepticism 101" again. The twelve steps are a steaming pile of semi-religious horse crap, but just like Homoeopathic medicine (=water) it works for a lot of people. That doesn't make it any less nonsensical to me.

Alas, I think my potential for Mad Skillz is rather low So I need rules, Sensei.

I'm terribly sorry (not) but this is just stupid advice. A can of whipped cream contains Nitrous Oxide (laughing gas) and while it gets you high, it has little to do with hypoxia. If you inhale N2O until the point you are starting to get really hypoxic, (and you won't get there from sucking the N2O from one can of whipped cream), you really want an anaesthetist to guide the process. Yeah, I'm a noob and shit, but I know this isn't even a good way to "do" laughing gas, (don't ask, wild adolescence, but nowadays I'm boring and stuff) let alone alone simulate hypoxia with it.

If people can't stop drinking, the 12 steps of the AA won't help either. People who stop by means of the AA obviously are able to quit drinking. Unless someone proves that there's such thing as a higher power that actively keeps people from drinking.

You're actually right. I even do self-hypnosis, which is actually nothing more then lying to yourself, and choosing to believe the lies. Not a placebo, but there's a lot of similarities. But a fake pill or manipulating your mid via concentration techniques is a whole lot better then a "Higher Power" which could be God, or a group of people, or love, or Mel Gibson's scrotum or anything you want it to be. Nuty let me rephrase: "A placebo doesn't work if you don't believe in it." in my case a "higher power" doesn't work for me... @Popsjumper: What Winsor says.

Sensei, I've literally no clue what you're talking about, but you might want to reread my comment. While I consider the 12 steps nonsensical, I admit they work for some people, and I think that deluding yourself with 12 nonsensical steps is a major improvement over killing yourself slowly with ethanol. I think we might be mostly on the same page here, but since I don't know what you're saying I'm not entirely sure.

That it works well, doesn't mean that it isn't bullshit. Those twelve steps are nothing more then meaningless spiritual mumbo jumbo if you're a non-believer like me. But if it works for people why not, it probably wouldn't work for me as placebos don't work if you know it's a placebo. I've seen it up close and personal how a loved one drank himself to death, so I know what alcoholism is.

NOOOOO!!! not the children!

But... but... that's just so.... wrong Someone, I don't remember who, but I think it was a comic, said something along the lines of: "If it doesn't hurt, it isn't funny" I don't know if that's true but I know that (as a rule of thumb) I laugh harder when the joke is more offensive. I don't remember me ever laughing over a joke that was PC. PC and humour certainly bite each other But nowadays everyone seems to want the right to not be offended. Never minding the fact that's often them that choose to be offended themselves.

YES. A couple of weeks ago someone told me a joke about sending kids with ADHD to concentration camps. It wasn't the most tasteless joke I ever heard, but it was certainly one of the more tasteless jokes I heard in a long time. I laughed.

Thank you all for the answers!

I made my jump on the 28th of September, and I seriously considered to do something irresponsible like selling my car/kidney/mother-in-law to fund AFF before winter. I understand AFF can be done year round in the Netherlands, but during wintertime I usually hibernate. But anyway, I really get the addiction part now, but I didn't see it coming before the jump.....

Eagle vision isn't what it used to be any more.

You're Welcome

So you literally meant you couldn't wait until spring....

So you're saying that there are in fact no rules?