peek

Dave: ...or as a flight instructor taught me years ago, "bite the carrot." Everyone eats carrots from the pointy end first right? Gary: As a reminder to everyone, this works for windsocks, but possibly not for all wind indicators. I recall a jumper who was given this rule of thumb at her local DZ which had a windsock, and then went to the WFFC in Quincy, where there is a large tetrahedron that has its pointy end _facing_ into the wind. Yep, she landed downwind on the first jump there.

Brian: ... I am willing to lock them in the classroom and tie them to the chair if it will make a difference. I have seen the classroom time make a difference. Gary: Agreed, but I would like to see people get this information (mainly away from the drop zone) when they have time to read it and think about it. That is why I mentioned the WWW. Brian: The trouble with forums and other web formats is that the information can often lack documentation. Humans are very good at remembering ideas, but terrible at attributing those ideas to sources. Gary: That is why I proposed dropzone.com as a repository for safety info from experts. If enough experts say that same thing it is probably a good idea to heed their advice. Brian: I think that if we present the material in a classroom setting, the opportunity to answer questions on the spot gives the educational experience significantly more depth than reading alone. Gary: Of course it does. When I was a novice I had so many questions for my mentors it must have driven them crazy. I have a small number of people that still ask me quite a few questions. I think the people that want to learn will, at least by some means. Maybe you are seeing a lot of reluctance to learn? Brian: The right books, combined with consciencious mentorship is the way to do that. Gary: I think that is what I was describing, but it takes a bit of desire on the part of the person that needs the knowledge. I have never had much success forcing anyone to learn, but those who are asking the questions are learning a lot. Note: To get back to the idea of classroom education, it would seem to me that a good format would be small segments of classroom work, interspersed with practical work, or application. We do this for first jump courses and it seems to work well. I'm not sure why it would not work for more advanced canopy control. I keep thinking "attention span" here.

Seen on the WFFC Message Board, from Registration: "Pro-trac or facimile is not a logbook. You had better have a license or log book to back it up." Good point. This gives everyone plenty of time to transfer those electronically recorded jumps to the real thing.

Brian: "I think that one of the problems with the sport today is that we have not utilized the classroom enough, as well as the books that are already available." Gary: I basically agree, however I must admit that when I am at the dropzone, the last place I want to be is a classroom. I think we must encourage people to do the reading earlier, and then ask questions at the drop zone. (After all, look at how many posts to the forums are made. A lot of people have plenty of time to do this.) Another issue here is books specifically. I think even the best books include too much information. Everyone that writes a book looks for information to add chapters so that the book is bigger. Me, you, everyone. It's something that happens. Even Dan Poynter, when told that me and Dr. Jean Potvin (www.pcprg.com) were writing a book on parachute data acquisition, spoke of things to "make the book bigger". I think the WWW is one of the best places to get information, because usually the author or web designer has structured the writing to the web, that is, short, easy to read paragraphs, and short articles. The references Tom mentioned after you post are quite good, but many jumpers will not have a chance to know about them. Our own dropzone.com has many articles in the Safety Area, but people that do not utilize dropzone.com will never see them. In fact, I know of a lot of jumpers, and even a DZO, that badmouth dropzone.com because all they hear about is the forums. They actually say that dropzone.com is worthless and that they don't like it. (In reality, these are people who are afraid, and who can't cut it communicating with the big boys and big girls here.) Inexperienced jumpers hear this and miss out.

Actually Stephen, neither were. I verified this with JC. I'm not sure where you got this idea. I have never seen our TI use frappe hats on himself or student unless it is cold.

This should interest a number of you that participated in the recent thread "Head protection for Tandem students". I was up flying the 182 Saturday so I competely missed it and everyone told me about it Sunday, including the TI. Evidently no spectators were present, and the winds were so light that no shaggers were present, so the first person to notice was another TI landing afterwards. He was completely unconcious for about a minute after being hit on the chin or thereabouts, and then came to and took a few more minutes to feel right. The student noticed he had a sore head afterwards, but was not hurt. The TI doesn't really know what happened. He tends to kind of lean over students on landing if they are not quite standing and he is, so possibly the student dug in their heels and stopped them suddenly. I'm not sure if anyone asked the student what he thinks happened.

Although most Stilettos open fine, I wanted mine to open "finer", so I put a larger slider on it. Worked great. (Yes it had very new lines on it when I did this.) Why are so many people against putting larger sliders and pocket sliders on canopies? Unless they slow down the opening too much, (or mask a line trim problem so bad that it might cause a malfunction eventually), who cares?

I don't know if it has been mentioned yet. Has anyone noticed where and how the S/L is attached in the photo on page 58 of the June 04 Parachutist? I wouldn't want my head under the bar if the student became entangled in the S/L.

A very nice idea for a thread. I hope it lasts a long time.

Chris and group, 1. Can anyone really believe that such a thing will increase drag enough to make much of a difference? 2. Does anyone have any scientific evidence that it does? 3. Can anyone believe that a jumpsuit manufacturer would hesitate to market such an item without scientific basis? My belief is that even with the abundance of those audible altimeter/fall rate recording thingies (which by the way provide questionable data at best), that no one has ever went up on two skydives, one with these forearm covers and one without [by themselves for the specific purpose of obtaining data on this]. Without this data it's all pure speculation. Furthermore I am convinced that no one is a good enough skydiver to not influence the outcome of such jumps by intentionally or unintentionally changing their body position on these jumps. I suspect that an inch variation on body postion would change the fall rate much more than these forearm covers. ref: www.pcprg.com/baro.htm

Thanks everyone, I'm enjoying hearing these stories. I hope eveyone is. Here is another one of mine. I was visiting the old Spaceland DZ some years ago and doing some Tandem jumps there. A woman went with me whose friend was a novice getting current again or something like that if I recall. So she knew at least a little bit about skydiving. But she seemed a bit nervous. Well, I trained her to do the normal stuff I always have, like doing turns and pulling, etc. She continued to have that funny reluctant look on her face the whole climb to altitude, like she wasn't sure she thought this was a good idea. Well, in freefall she was a wonderful surprise. I always tell students to go ahead and do some turns on their own after I give them the thumbs up OK signal. She actually turned her head all the way around, looked at me out of the corner of her eye, put her finger in the air and twirled it (telling me, "I'm doing some turns now, OK?"), and then turned. The funny thing is, when we got to the ground and I told her how well she did, she still gave me that funny reluctant look. Like it was old hat.

"Where to place a student in the progression" Not a particularly descriptive title, but I'll explain. If a student comes to you in the middle of the progression of a training method (any method), and has not jumped for 2 months, do you (refresher training for exit, CC, EP, landing, etc. is assumed to be included regardless) 1. Determine that they are ready for the next "level", or "catagory" or jump, by their documentation (stating so) and quizzing, (or possibly other things) and then train for, and do that jump, or 2. Assume that since it has been a while, and that you don't know them or their previous instructors and how accurately their previous instructors described their performance, and train them for an "earlier" or simpler "level or catagory" to check them out before continuing at their documented place in the progression for the next jump. 3. Any other? Or any other comments? What are your feelings about this as an instructor, (or DZO if you are). [Disclaimer: I am asking this question only as an instructor interested in providing skydiving students in general with the "best" possibly instruction.]

"modern flying styles" A recent ad from a canopy manufacturer lists a (quote from someone?) stating that a canopy is "very suited for modern flying styles". And what do you suppose that would that be?

TandemMaster or Tandem Instructor? I'm posting this to the general skydiving forum because the question I am about to ask is directed to everyone, because sooner or later all sydivers are going to refer to the person in back of the Tandem by some name. What name do you use to refer to this person and why? I took a quick look at the RWS and SE web sites, and found that most recent references are to TI and earlier references were to TM, although I found web pages that had mixed references, i.e., a link using one name to a document titled with the other name.

If I'm jumping where there is a manufacturer or their rep providing a wide range of canopies to demo, I try out the bigger ones so I have some idea what it would be like for someone with less experience. The 4 different canopies I normally fly are so diverse anyway, and I don't plan to buy anything new soon, so this seems to be a good use of a demo opportunity. I heartily recommend this to any experienced jumper.

After seeing these comments to my posts: 1. If you are going to bang your head on the airplane getting out or for that matter exiting with a student, you need to rethink being a TM. 2. ... if you are going to take students in conditions that are above your ability to "care" for them, maybe you should rethink why you are a tandem master! .. I am going to assume that you are having a bad week and are angry about something. Please feel free to call me and discuss this, because I am going to stop now. (800) 435-1975 P.S. I am not a Tandem "Master". I am a Tandem Instructor.

G.P. Is there anyone that can justify not having head protection of _some_ kind on their student? A.S. Simply, why? I cannot think of any instance a student wearing head protection is going to help. I would venture to say that almost all head injuries are more likely neck related and had nothing to do with wearing a helmet. G.P. I'm thinking landing incidents too. I don't often get my head near anything on exit, but I have gotten it uncomfortably close to the ground when the wind picked up and the shaggers couldn't run fast enough. Having head protection for even something as minor as rolling over and rubbing one's head across the grass is worth it to me. It's just too easy to pick one up and throw it on your head. I generally think that our students deserve all the training and safety equipment that we can give them.

Right, and it is right here on dropzone.com in the Safety section under Boogie Safety. So is an article by Bill Von. Also, since we are beginning to think about the WFFC, and since people will be discussing this, I will repost this, from the 2003 Welcome Book: Important Safety Information For Skydivers at the WFFC 1. Aircraft loading and exit The aircraft staff at the loading tents are an important source of information. They can provide you with the direction of the jump run, winds aloft information, the time between exits of groups on the same aircraft, and any information particular to the type of aircraft you will be jumping. Loading and Exit Order: Pay attention to the aircraft loader and approach the aircraft only from the direction indicated by the loader! Do not let your excitement or haste cause you to forget basic aircraft loading safety. (Propellers!) If there are any non-skydivers in the area who are not supervised, please watch out for them. The direction of the upper winds may require that Tandems exit first, so please be flexible and cooperate with the Tandem Instructors if they have a request. Otherwise the exit order will probably be flat flying groups from larger to smaller, then fast fall rate groups from larger to smaller. Exit: Spotting is done by the aircraft staff and they are very good at it. Do not second-guess them! Exit lights or other obvious methods are provided to tell you when to exit, so do not delay. Go to the door, give the count, and leave. The aircraft staff and other groups of skydivers behind you are counting on your ability to do this. Pay particular attention to the weight and balance issues with the aircraft. Do not place more jumpers to the rear of the aircraft than permitted. If you are in the later groups exiting, stay as far forward as possible. 2. Opening Altitude At the Convention there will be multiple aircraft dropping loads of jumpers over the same areas at short intervals. In order to insure that jumpers from an earlier load have descended below the opening area for the later load, you must not open high! You need to plan your deployment altitude so that you have a fully open canopy no higher than 3000 feet AGL, and you are expected to be familiar with the opening characteristics of the canopy you will jumping in order to do this. If you are jumping a demo canopy, you should consult the supplier of the canopy for advice on its opening characteristics. If you experience a premature deployment or other situation that places you above 3000 feet under canopy, you must either quickly descend below 3000 feet or fly your canopy away from the jump run in order to provide clear airspace for the later jumpers. 3. Landing: Consider all possible landing areas at the Convention. (Refer to the Convention site map.) The "main" landing areas near Manifest and the load organizer tents are large, but can become congested at times, particularly during periods of high jump activity. There are numerous alternate landing areas to consider, so remember, "land safe, not close." Hook Turns: Hook turns (turns more than 90 degrees to landing) are permitted only in the swoop pond hook turn area!!! Hook turns are extremely dangerous at the Convention and must not be done where they are not expected. Wind Indicators: There will be a large number of wind indicators at the Convention site, but they may not be the type that you are used to seeing. Many manufacturers have Windblades, and many skydivers have their own favorite wind socks and streamers. The normal airport wind socks are also present. Make sure to look for all of these indicators well in advance of landing. Notice: Wind indicators near the aircraft loading areas will be temporarily affected by departing aircraft! Landing pattern: The left hand landing pattern has become the standard in skydiving with few exceptions. On most jumps you will be opening in an area that easily permits a left hand landing pattern, so please think ahead, plan your landing pattern, and try to fit into the pattern well with other jumpers. If you open in an area that does not allow a left hand pattern, then change your landing area! Right-of-way: Another safety standard on landing is to give the lower canopy the right of way, because you can see them but they cannot usually see you. If you have a small canopy and descend below another canopy not descending as quickly, you must be very careful because this will suddenly change which canopy has the right-of-way. You must also not do this in order to gain the right-of-way, nor to expect it. No-Wind Conditions: Light and variable wind conditions can present some dangerous landing conditions at the Convention because the wind indicators may be changing, even while a load is descending. This causes some jumpers to be confused about the landing direction and to land in different directions. The best bet is to fit into a pattern with the jumpers landing before you, even if this makes your landing slightly downwind. If the winds are variable they will surely be light, and a downwind landing at those wind speeds should not be cause for concern. Concentrate on the landing and run it out. If you have any doubts about the landing pattern or direction, please land in an alternate or very open landing area, and use extreme caution.

OK, I'm going to go with one of mine now. Most of you have mentioned Tandem students so far, so I'm going to do something completely different and tell a S/L story. It's been a while, but I had this guy that I was S/L jumpmastering out of a Cessna 182. They do hanging exits, and we of course always tell them to get as far out on the strut as they can so they don't risk smacking the step. So this guy get out there, realizes he isn't all that far out, and then walks himself out and up the strut until he is right at the wing. Then he looks at me as if to say, "I'm ready now.", like if he had practiced it. I'm certainly not that strong, and I couldn't do that. Good reason to keep some slack in the static line.

I use a ProTec for most jumps, so there it is, ready to grab for every Tandem. Frappe Hat on the student, always. Warning: Thread hijack in progress! Is there anyone that can justify not having head protection of _some_ kind on their student?

Yep, I'm enjoying it. That's the kind of stuff I really like hearing about.

Instructor Poll: "I had a student so good that they ..." (Sorry, not actually a poll.) It seems that when instructors get together, either physically, or in a forum such as this one, that they tend to talk about the negative things that their students do. Tandem instructors talk about their students grabbing stuff, "trying to kill them", etc. AFF instructors talking about students that "go fetal", spin away, invert, etc. S/L instructors talking about how their student pushed off and nearly became a student-in-tow. I don't know why that is, other than perhaps it makes for a good story. Personally, I would enjoy hearing some stories from instructors about the really interesting things their students have done. It seems like at least a few times a year, I am really surprised by something a student does, e.g., very good performance, being very relaxed in freefall when I thought they would be nervous, showing above average awareness, etc. Some of these students really amaze me and they make me think back to my student skydiver days. I was a pretty good student, but nothing like what I see from some of these people. I don't think I could have ever done as well as I have seen some of them do. I know that we know how to teach skydiving better now than back then, but still...

Speedy: I am interested on comments relating to a Cessna Caravan. I would be interested to hear how your static line students exit the aircraft. Peek: Since the local DZ's C182 has been unavailable, we have used the Caravan, and it has been an interesting learning experience for all. We decided on "AFF style", (if refering to facing forward holding onto the front edge of the door or bar above.) Exits range from poor to excellent depending on how much energy the student is willing to use putting themselves into the proper body position. Those who are weak are blown to the left as soon as the left part of their body gets into the prop blast. These are often, but not always, ugly. Those who are strong fair much better. Those who are confident and are really ** taught what is going on with the prop blast*** can do an almost perfect head high exit facing forward. (Those are a joy to see.) Some students get rolled to the left into what is essentially a head down position which looks like a diving exit. Sometimes this is fine because their torso is into the relative wind, and the deployment is normal. It is just that it is disturbing to them to see things from that angle. They think they have done a tumbling exit and need a little confidence building when debriefed. Interesting note: Telling the student to "lean forward" right before exiting seems to help them quite a bit. Because of the body angle, it seems the prop blast doesn't throw them back quite as bad.

All, The question I posed earlier: "For those of you who have mentioned small landing areas that everyone must land in - How small are you refering too?" refered to a landing area in which all skydivers were "required" to land. This could be for any number of reasons, e.g., everything but the runway and landing area is forest or swamp and the DZ manager kicks the DZ out if anyone lands near the runway, etc. I was wondering how many drop zones were restricted to this degree. (It would be unfortunate if they were.) Some of my earlier comments assumed that at least some type of "alternate" landing area was available in which to divert and land in the direction of one's choice if otherwise safe to do so. If there was a landing area this restricted it would seem that very strict landing direction procedures be in place, at least for the majority of the people landing at the same time. It would also seem that the DZ would have in place some procedures for students and novice jumpers, to make sure they are unlikely to be landing when large numbers of other jumpers are, e.g., assigned pull altitudes.

Paul: Can the advocates of first man down please post a valid reason as to why they would prefer to use first man down method over the big, easy to read and understand, manually controlled arrow? Paul, I am not a FMD advocate, but I am commenting anyway. I think using a large wind indicator that takes at least a few MPH of wind to move it or is controlled by people is one of the better ways of determining landing direction. It seems to have worked well every place I have seen it used and where everyone knew about it and followed this idea. Of course not every DZ has one.