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"High performance canopies versus high performance skydivers" Another thread has caused me to bring this up. We call a number of canopies on the market "high performance". (Some might argue that nearly any canopy made from zero porosity fabric is high performance.) Yet many novice jumpers are purchasing high performance canopies and then wondering why they are having questionable openings and having a difficult time landing them. I would think that the solution to a number of these problems would to be purchase "medium performance" canopies or canopies (according to whatever source defines them as that) designed specifically for novices, (or perhaps for older jumpers wanting a zero porosity fabric canopy without the speed, etc.) 1. If one purchases a "high performance" canopy, is it not reasonable to expect them to be a "high performance skydiver"? 2. Are these people simply being talked into it by manufacturers or experienced jumpers they know? 3. Or are they falling for the concept that newer designs are neccesarily better for them regardless of their experience?

BUMP for new info, 1/2 ounce streamer, 1102 and 1190 FPM, probably good descent rate for novices.

I think it was the kind used on older rigs to hold a metal ripcord handle (like a Martin baker style). It had binding tape on the edges. I can't really describe it well, but like this on the under side of the botton flap. \ |----| / vertical bars = binding tape \ |____| / part from hyphens to underscore=elastic ---------

Not quite like that :) It's just that I hate seeing people told, "no, never", when things could be done to make the rig "safer". For the majority of people who are not meticulous with maintenance and don't understand what they need to secure on a rig, the answer should be "no". I just want people to have the knowledge they need if they simply can't afford the latest rig, but can talk a rigger that understands this stuff into doing some mods inexpensively.

I had an enlightening conversation with Tamara Koyn this evening about "freefly-friendly" rigs. Tamara was doing freestyle from the beginning and when she got into it seriously and at the point where she was using nearly every possible orientation with the relative wind she was first using a Vector 1. Later she got a Vector 2 with a bottom-of-container pilot chute pouch. She is meticulous about maintenance, and as a result never had any Velcro flaps give her trouble that she recalled. She even had a rear-of-leg pilot chute pouch with Velcro on the bridle running down to the pouch, yet experienced no problems. As we talked I started to remember some of the mods she had me and some others do to her rigs. The one issue she did have was flaps coming open, but new Velcro on the reserve flap fixed that, and for the main, the "tongue" did not hold the main flap closed well enough until a heavy elastic assembly was put on the underneath side of the top flap for the tongue to fit into. This worked very well. (Someone else figured out this design.) Another mode she had me do was to put metal snaps on the toggles to supplement the Velcro, much like Tandem toggles have. Hope these ideas give some riggers ideas on how to make some of these rigs more secure.

Understood, thanks. If you're not tired of the questions yet: What kind of toggles were those?

That's quite all right, a lot of things are. Thanks for the time you are spending to explain it with only text. Well, I'll need to bother you for at least one more post, and some of this is questions for anyone reading this exchange. To you: What is different about "3-D" skydives compared to other skydives that present wind to the rig in all different directions? To all: What is "freefly friendly"? Guaranteed to not have any flap or cover be misplaced under any conditions? Is that possible? Is that what we expect from the manufacturers?

Generator, you are actually making a post about skydiving?!!!! From the posts I have been seeing in Bonfire lately one would think you are on vacation with nothing to do! Sometimes the first load of the day is very much an educated guess, (but only if you are in a place where it is OK to land off). We are a bit casual about that when we are in Illinois. People put a bit more thought into it where necessary. People usually know where they want to be [open] by the ground winds, but it is not uncommon for people to get blown in freefall to a place they did not expect.

Agreed, but shouldn't we expect people to know to 1. stow things well, and 2. make sure they are tight? If not, perhaps there is something missing in training now. My knowledge of this was gained when I had just a few jumps. I simply watched what my mentors did.

You know, the more I read of this thread, the more I think that some of these rigs that people have experienced problems with are not just because they don't have the latest style riser covers and bridle covers..... For example, all of my rigs are BOC pilot chute and have about 1 to 1.5 inches of bridle exposed going from under the right side main container flap to the pilot chute pouch. The flap holds the bridle so tight that there is no way it is going anywhere regardless of speed or body orientation. And the "tongue" on the main flap? It fits tightly enough that there is no way the flap is coming open. I'm beginning to think that these are older (and bigger) rigs that people are using smaller main canopies with, and are not all that tight in the main container. (Also perhaps their pilot chute pouch were designed for larger pilot chutes and are not very tight.) Also, even if a riser cover comes open there is no way a toggle should ever get loose if it is designed well (Velcroless) or if it is maintained well if it has Velcro. I'm so puzzled by this talk. How are you guys making this gear fail you? Remember, rigs are a system, where all of the parts of the system must work together. If they don't there can be problems that may appear to be the fault of something that is not really to blame.

This "haggling" when buying a car from a dealer thing has been around as long as I can remember, (and I'm not young.) I remember my father being good at haggling with car dealers, and I even did it well when I bought a new car many years ago. People wanting to buy a car, and who are not good at confrontation and haggling, are apparantly sheep among wolves. I have never heard of a "good deal" (from the start of negotiations) from a car dealer. I guess that it why Saturn decided to create a new paradigm on purchasing cars, i.e., "no haggle". It's a shame. The industry seems to want to perpetuate their reputation as those who need to be treated with suspicion. After all, cars are a "commodity" item aren't they?!!! Why wouldn't dealers want to advertise good prices and stick with them?

I am quite sure that your pilot chute has nothing to do with the problem you describe. Pilot chutes have nothing to do with the inflation time. Pilot chutes seldom cause any problems at all unless the lines are stowed so insecurely that it causes issues related to the canopy coming out of the bag.

Perhaps you two are not as far apart on the technique as you might think. He might be thinking that you are wanting the student's back perpendicular to the floor is asking a bit much of the student. I have found this to be difficult for older jumpers in particular. What you are suggesting requires more work (at least to me when I have tried that position), and might cause tension in the student, causing them to want to launch vigorously. That might be what he is refering to. My thoughts are to suggest to the student something that is comfortable and does not cause any addiitional concern (nervousness). If they get corrected too much when practicing, it makes them think they are not doing it well enough. I suggest to the student "left foot forward", but immediately say, "but if you put your right foot forward, no big deal." That's because I haven't found it to be a big deal.

Damn good idea! I'm not sure about the convenience though. If there is only one balloon, it gives you only one shot at a swoop, and I think multiple balloons will get to be a hassle. But I like your thinkin'. I might be trying this at some point. Me and my friend try to keep helium and balloons around the DZ.

BUMP for new info, 1647 FPM, flown with another canopy. More to come!

Note: I've gone back and re-read my posts on this thread so far, and I have not seen anywhere that I have been negative toward any event. Many of my postings on dropzone.com (in general, not just this thread) are directed toward debunking myths and challenging some misinformation that has apparantly become "common knowledge" merely because it has been repeated many times. The "dangers" at the WFFC is one of them. (There are dangers everywhere. There is not a lack of danger at your home drop zone or at a smaller event, but just a different danger, perhaps even one caused by complacence due to one's thinking there is less danger.) If you have any questions about the WFFC, please ask, and please continue checking the event's web site, as there will probably be more information on the Safety Info page as it gets created.

How to save a lot of disk space... I assume every ridiculous post that everyone makes is saved, and I can't imagine saving many of them. If it were my computer I would just tell everyone, "Anything in Bonfire will be deleted in a month.". "If you want to say something for all eternity, then make it topical and use another forum." I just can't believe how many posts there are in Bonfire and how useless some of them are....

I beg your pardon, but I have never mentioned any other event! To what are you refering?

Skydiving is not "safe". Having said that, any nearly well maintained rig can be used for freefalling in the various orientations, even rigs with Velcro. Perhaps asking an open-minded and experienced rigger to show you some of the things to consider on the rig. This rigger might be able to do some inexpensive modifications to improve the safety of the rig if needed.

Skydiving is not safe, and no one should be told that they will be safe or safer at a particular drop zone or event. Using the picture attached to the message, please indicate the landing areas where you have seen "canopies coming into EVERY landing area from ALL directions at the SAME time". To the others reading this post: Do you know that all of the areas annotated are available for landing canopies? (Plus some others off the photo.) Is there anyone that truly thinks they must land in M1? And by the way, where are all those canopies that are said to fill the congested sky at the WFFC? I don't see all that many, and when I look at all the pictures in the archive on the WFFC web site, I don't see that many canopies in many of those either.

Sir, which landing zone at the WFFC is dangerous? The "main" landing area? Hopefully you are not refering to the student landing area, where the AFF students land, and where anyone is free to land. Or the countless other places to land if you wish. (Pictures may be viewed on the Safety Info page of the WFFC web site.) And at what times are the landing areas congested at the WFFC? Perhaps on the busiest days during the mid morning to mid afternoon surge. Mike Mullins flys 2-3 loads early in the morning where his load is the only one in the air. All this talk about the dangers of the WFFC... Tsk, tsk, tsk. The real danger is the golf carts at night :)

I seems like either not many people saw the video or were not impressed with it? Was it that bad? Is the poster even hanging at your drop zone?

Need I even tell you that me and whole lot of very good load organizers will be there?

This may help. www.pcprg.com In the Skydiver Area: "Ram-air parachute packing methods"

Andrea, This type of statement is extremely frustrating to those of us intimately familiar with Convention. Yes, if a person goes there without a good attitude there are dangers that may exist that would not exist at their home drop zone. If they expect to jump all day and make a lot of jumps, they will probably jump at some point where there are a number of canopies in the air, but no more than at a drop zone like Skydive Arizona or Skydivce Chicago when they are busy. (I never see anyone make a post suggesting that someone not go to a dropzone.com boogie!) More importantly, if a person chooses the time period in which they jump, like early in the morning, they can be on the only load in the air. Furthermore, AFF students jump at the Convention! It is extremely interesting to me to observe their attitude about canopy control. Since they have learned there, they know from the start that they must be observant, unlike those who have learned to jump at their local "safe" drop zone. There is something for everyone at the Convention, literally. Please do not discourage skydives from going there. It is unfair to them.