nerdgirl

Thanks for the reference to the primary document and the translation. It's my understanding that there were 2 statements at different occasions. Have you found a copy/link to the other one? VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

That’s a reasonable question: [I]why would anyone be opposed to something that is purely defensive?[/I] Missile defense (nee ballistic missile defense, nee Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), including but not limited to “Star Wars”) is *not unambiguously defensive.* That’s the main reason that states like Russia oppose it. If a state is disinclined to trust the other state’s intentions or stated goals, it looks a lot/exactly like a very sophisticated offensive system. Missile defense is an active defense system. It’s categorized as active defense by the DoD: “active defense protects against theater missiles by destroying them in flight.” In order to be defensive, missile defense has an offensive or active component that is supposed to interact with an incoming missile. The type of interaction can vary from Aegis missiles that shot down USA 193 (the spy satellite last spring) to the oxygen-iodine laser (COIL) of the Airborne Laser on an unbalanced 747-400. This is opposed to passive defense, such as personal protective equipment, e.g., MOPP suits and M40 “gas” masks or vaccines against a biological weapon. One can envision passive defense types of missile defense systems (think: giant force field) but such capabilities are more science fantasy to the realm of DARPA than technically feasible today. Attached is an image from the DoD’s MDA “Basics” website. Compare the image, particularly that on the right of the launching missiles (interceptors) to images from a 2006 Iranian test of Shahab-3 (& other) missiles. They look alike. Visually and on radar. Because at the most fundamental level, they are alike (e.g., the physics and the materials). The payloads are (supposed to be) different – high explosives vs kinetic heavy shaped mass w/lots of electronics (exoatmospheric kill vehicle (EKV) or “hit-to-kill vehicle”; image attached). Payload is sometime difficult to tell from a distance, sometimes not. The intention is the key difference. W/r/t Russia’s specific concerns about the US-Polish deal: The US has proposed locating 10 interceptor sites in Poland, i.e., ten different spots within Poland at which multiple silo-based long-range interceptor missiles will be housed. (Imagine Russia made a deal with Cuba to place 10 ground based long-ranged missiles in Cuba … ) The US missile defense program is defensive. I may know that, you may know that, SecDef Gates may know that … but frankly (& this may sound counter-intuitive), from a security perspective that’s as important as what Russia or China or even Iran think. They can’t tell. If they can’t tell they’re inclined to hedge to protect their interests. Hedging can escalate. Escalation -- especially given the problems of Russia's early warning system -- can lead to conflict. That doesn’t mean that what Russia or China or Iran thinks is ‘all-important’; at the same time, it would be arrogant to not recognize that geo-politically it does impact whether they are more or less inclined to trust us or to act openly or covertly to develop their own countermeasures. One countermeasure of theirs could be pre-emptive attack to eliminate the threat of a perceived highly sophisticated offensive missile system. The ambiguous nature of missile defense as offensive/defensive is the problem from Russia’s perspective ... or China, when one starts talking about missile defense sites in Japan. There are parallels to Iran’s claimed peaceful civilian nuclear program. Because they have acted covertly, I’m inclined to judge that their stated intentions for civilian nuclear power are not totally transparent or true. I wanted to respond precisely to your question about why a state like Russia would be opposed to missile defense. There are other reasons to oppose missile defense, imo; a few of which I briefly outlined here. Most critical, imo, is that missile defense does nothing to defend against a smuggled nuclear weapon or improvised nuclear device (IND) – (NB: an IND is different than an RDD/'dirty bomb') – being brought into or used against the US or an ally. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Why would you refer to people who attack foreign military targets as "terrorists"? If they are doing it as non-state actors, yes. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Thanks … in thinking about oriental rugs, something about which I have never invested much squishy gray matter, from a Jared Diamond-esque perspective it makes complete sense that oriental rugs would *not* originate from Southeast Asia or even most of Japan (except perhaps higher altitude areas of Hokkaido). Two reasons: climate & prevalence of domesticatable animals. Climate: Very rarely are heavy, wool rugs useful in hot, humid areas. I’m confident that others can attest better than I to the climate of Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Philippines, Singapore, etc and how inappropriate a thick, heavy, water-logged carpet would be. There is no significant history of any kind of rugs within most of Japan. Tatami (bamboo) & goza (grass) mats are traditional floor coverings. Wool rugs are useful in hot, dry areas or in cold areas. Sheep: They were domesticated in the Middle East. Sheep are less common and more recent introductions to hot humid areas (like most of Japan & Southeast Asia). Japan, in particular, has had problems with sheep being susceptible to tropical diseases to which they don’t have natural resistance (to tie in one more Diamond-esque theme ). VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

And if they are, what is the impact for US foreign policy? One of the arguments of Francis Fukuyama’s The End of History was that democracy and market capitalism (“liberal democracy”) prevailed at the end of the 20th Century as the clear winner across the planet as the best political and economic over any of the alternatives. One might say Fukuyama argued that it was the ‘clear winner’: “What we may be witnessing is not just the end of the Cold War, or the passing of a particular period of post-war history, but the end of history as such: that is, the end point of mankind’s ideological evolution and the universalization of Western liberal democracy as the final form of human government.” Fukuyama got a lot of criticism with the rise of radical Islamists terrorism and attacks on the US of September 11th. He’s now getting criticism from another perspective. Robert Kagan recently published his rejoinder to Fukuyama: The Return of History and the End of Dreams in which he proposes “Hopes for a new peaceful international order after the end of the Cold War have been dashed by sobering realities: Great powers are once again competing for honor and influence.” (Btw: Kagan co-founded the neoconservative Project for a Pew American Century [PNAC] and advises Sen McCain.) With the spotlight of attention on Beijing from the Olympics and Russia with the conflict in South Ossetia/Georgia, the reality that a Fukuyama-style vision may not have happened … at least not yet … is being brought to the attention of the world. China & Russia are both capitalist systems, state-based and oligarchic, respectively. They’re not liberal democracies, but they are capitalist market economies, albeit one in which a narrow elite controls large scale political-economic decisions. The Russian Col-Gen making noises about nuclear attack may be seen as an example of return to rhetoric and great powers in competition. Calling it a “return to Cold War” is imprecise, inaccurate, and … well, intellectually lazy, im-ever-ho … altho’ there may be many who still see the world through Fulda-Gap colored glasses (i.e., ‘unreformed’ Soviet specialists/scholars). Cold War was a bipolar world of competition between 2 great powers, the US and the USSR; the latter doesn’t exist and there are other competitors. The Cold War was about fundamentally clashing ideologies – Russia & China have hunt-n-pecked what they want from liberal democratic economics adapting to their own systems. (The conflict with radical Islamist extremists is much more about ideologies.) Authoritarian or autocratic powers – of which I consider both Putin’s Russia and China – are traditionally seen as less stable because transfer of power is often messy, brutal, and bloody. And power is concentrated in the hands of the few. Autocracies were not seen as able to maintain power (stability) under the liberalizing influence of capitalism. (And that’s “liberal” in the classical economics/philosophy sense not US partisan politics.) This is a core tenet of the argument for expansion of liberal democracies. US foreign policy for decades has been based on the oft unwritten idea that liberal market-based economic systems are better and that it is in the US interest to advance such systems. (E.g., communism is bad and limiting the advance of communism is in the US interest … [vortexring]: also may be interesting intersections with Klein’s Shock Doctrine thesis.) VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

From reading the Op-Ed, the proposed policy sounds more akin to a domestic version of Millennium Challenge Account than the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

The International Herald Tribune “Poland-U.S. missile deal draws anger from Russia” has a less sensationalistic headline than the AP “Russia: Poland risks attack because of US missiles” or the Australia’s Daily Telegraph “Russia threatens nuclear attack” articles. From IHT: “The United States and Poland have reached a deal to place an American missile-defense base on Polish territory, in the strongest reaction so far to Russia's military operation in Georgia. “Russia reacted in anger, saying that the move would worsen relations with the United States, which had already been strained severely in the week since Russian troops entered separatist enclaves in Georgia, a close American ally. “At a news conference Friday, a senior Russian defense official, Colonel General Anatoli Nogovitsyn [rank roughly equivalent to 3-star General Officer – nerdgirl], suggested that Poland was making itself a target by agreeing to serve as host for the antimissile system. Such an action ‘cannot go unpunished,’ he said. “But the deal also reflected growing alarm in countries like Poland, once a conquered Soviet client state, about the intentions of a newly rich and powerful Russia in its former Cold War sphere of power. In fact, negotiations dragged on for 18 months - but were completed only as old memories and new fears surfaced over the last few days. “Those fears were codified to some degree in what U.S. officials characterized as unusual aspects of the final deal: that at least temporarily, U.S. soldiers would staff missile sites in Poland oriented toward Russia, and that the United States would be obliged to defend Poland in case of an attack with greater speed than required under NATO, of which Poland is a member.” From the AP article: “‘Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike—100 percent,’ [Gen. Anatoly] Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff, was quoted as saying. “He added, in clear reference to the agreement, that Russia's military doctrine sanctions the use of nuclear weapons ‘against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them.’ Nogovitsyn that would include elements of strategic deterrence systems, he said, according to Interfax. “At a news conference earlier Friday, Nogovitsyn had reiterated Russia's frequently stated warning that placing missile-defense elements in Poland and the Czech Republic would bring an unspecified military response. But his subsequent reported statement substantially stepped up a war of words.” Rhetoric or real? Bellicose threats of the Russian bear? Or further indication of Russia’s growing will to politically assert itself? … or indication of Russia’s *perceptions* regarding US unwillingness/inability to respond? VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

On the Oriental rug theme: (1) Jacobsen Oriental Rugs: Weaving in Pakistan “Bokhara production is centered around the city of Lahore. The name for this type comes from the city of Bukhara in Uzbekistan. A century ago rugs in designs like modern Bokharas were woven by Turkomans north of present day Afghanistan. Turkomans bartered rugs for goods they could not produce themselves, and many of their weavings accumulated in bazaar cities like Bokhara. Eventually the name of the city became associated with the rugs themselves, and this historical misnomer continues today.” (2) Egyptian Oriental Rugs “Solomon's Egyptian Sample Pieces From Egypt - Produced By Original and Authentic Solomon Sources, where only Solomon's has only the finest original Egyptian rugs at superior luxury value. Please note that these are only a sample of the fine Solomn Egyptian rugs available at our showroom and online store.” (3) Rugs Direct Oriental “The origin of most modern Oriental rugs are: Iran, India, China, Turkey, Nepal/Tibet, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Republic of Azerbaijan, Republic of Turkmenistan, Romania. “The origin of the majority of antique Oriental rugs are: Persia, India, China, Turkey, France, (assume those are second hand pieces, as opposed to indigenous weavers of Chamonix) Afghanistan and the Caucasus Region which includes Azerbaijan, Armenia. Georgia and Turkestan.” (4) Rugs of India Advertising links to “Fine Orientals” “Lifestyle Orientals” and “Budget Orientals” “We are the trusted wholesale dealers and manufacturers for Indian handmade rugs, oriental carpets, area rugs, decorative rugs & home textiles. Discover the beauty, quality and variety in our exclusive collections. The magic is in the weave.” (5) Iran Oriental Rug Company “Iran Oriental Rug Company is the oldest as well as the only Oriental rug cleaning company in Augusta, Georgia and has served the area for over 57 years.” (6) Turkish Oriental Rugs “In our site you will find the finest handmade Turkish oriental rugs, decorative pillows, kilim pillows, soumak pillows, patchwork cushions and kilims. We provide a useful and informative guide about handmade oriental rugs & kilims and offer online shopping facility for ordering all these items.” (7) Oriental Rugs History “During the past century, the Oriental rug has become valued throughout the world as a work of art. With its rich history and color, the Oriental rug often is called the aristocrat of carpets. Although the Oriental rug of today may not soar through the air like the magic carpet of Arabian legend, the Oriental rug does perform magic, transforming interior spaces into extraordinary spaces. “Historically, the great carpet-producing areas include Turkey, Persia, the Caucasus and Turkestan. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nepal, India and China also must be added to the list. And under Arab influence, Spain, too, has produced hand-knotted rugs of distinction. “Although there are references to carpets by early Greek and Arab writers, just when the first Oriental rug was woven is unknown. In 1949, a Russian archaeological expedition to the Altai mountains in southern Siberia excavated a royal burial mound that contained a miraculously preserved frozen carpet, Known as the Pazyryk carpet, it was used as a saddle cover for a horse interred in the burial mound. Beautifully designed, the rug dates from the 4th or 5th century B.C. and is the earliest-known surviving example of a hand-knotted carpet. “One theory is that the technique of knotting carpets was begun by the nomadic tribes of Central Asia. The wandering nomads are credited with spreading the art of carpet-making to new lands and peoples. “Some of the greatest carpet-making centers developed in Persia and Turkey. “Carpet-making probably has been taking place in Turkey at least as long as in Persia. After his visit in 1271 to the Turkish region known as Anatolia, Italian traveler Marco Polo described the area's carpets, with their geometric designs and animal figures, as the most beautiful in the world. “It was primarily through Italian merchants that the Oriental rug became recognized and valued in Europe. Venice early established itself as a major trading trader with the East. Venetians spread Oriental rugs along their narrow streets, hung the rugs from windows and used them to decorated their gondolas. By the early 16th century, Oriental rug collections could be found in the great courts of Europe, including those of Catherine de Medici and Charles V. The Lord Chancellor of England, Cardinal Wolsey, is reported to have purchased 60 Turkish carpets from a Venetian dealer to furnish his palace at Hampton Court. Remarkably there are few references to Southeast Asia (Thailand, Laos, Burma, Cambodia, Vietnam) or much of the East Asia (Japan, the Koreas, Taiwan), the geographic areas and diverse ethnic groups to which you so stubbornly want to assign the term “Oriental.” /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Pssst … Operating expenses are tax deductible! Income tax liability at the break even point is approximately zero. Also may want to take into account opportunities like SBIR & STTR programs. There are lots out there; that's just the one w/which I am most familiar. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

My first questions were "what is the distribution on annual income across the US"? And how does that correlate to purchasing power? E.g., $100k/y in northern Michigan would likely be "rich"; in northern California (SF Bay area) that would correlate to a substantially lower purchasing power (unless one owned a home before Proposition 13 went into law.) Second question: what are the metrics to determine "rich"? As a grad student, the financial ability to buy real Gore-Tex(R) rather than homemade, improvised, DIY versions for backpacking and hiking seemed like a pretty good ROM metric. (Neither Amundsen nor Hillary had Gore-Tex(R).) That's not a standard metric, afaik, however. Being cognizant of what I suspect is the origin of the question, it's interesting to observe the poll responses and read the comments. Neat question! VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

It's my understanding that Sen Nunn has been advising Sen Obama regularly since March of 2007. Sen Nunn endorsed Sen Obama in April. Last Saturday, Sen Obama cited Sen Nunn as "particularly wise advisor." My speculation is Sen Nunn would accept a VP spot out of sense of duty but would strongly prefer Secretary of State. Even George Will likes him. Others are also speculating about how/if a VP Nunn would impact Georgia in the electoral votes. Although I doubt Sen Obama ranks it high on his priorities, Sen Saxby Chambliss -- who previously was thought to be completely "safe" -- may not be. In a recent poll, former State Senator (& veteran) Jim Martin is trailing Sen Chambliss by only 6 points, as opposed to 11 points before the Democratic run-off election. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

I would choose "neither." While a couple folks have mentioned/implied it in passing, the US is acting on security guarantees and in an effort to try to maintain regional stability. Russia is facing a security dilemma at its border beyond the lingering, hissing-sputtering historical and cultural animosities and perceived wrongs. Both are realist political actions. The US military has been training and equipping the Georgian Army since Spring 2002 (at a cost of >$150M) at the Krtsanisi National Education Center. An old Soviet military base, Krtsanisi is now the training base just outside Tbilisi. EUCOM’s Georgia Sustainment and Stability Operations Program (SSOP) (link from Defenselink.mil) has generally been considered to be a *successful* endeavor in security- and capacity-building. (Whole bunch of EUCOM.mil links). Additionally, among OIF’s MNF Georgians have been the 3rd or 4th largest national group. As the Georgian military becomes stronger, better trained, and better equipped, how is Russia going to view that development? Including in the context all the variables mentioned in this thread … & some others, like requesting initiation of the process to begin entry to NATO. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Do you have any basis for that assertion or is it just meant to be inflammatory? Did you miss where I disproved your assertion before (here), or do you not consider Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi and Rep Ike Skelton (D-MO) liberals? "The future of Georgia should be decided by the Georgian people. “The sooner Russian military action ceases, Russian forces are withdrawn, and Georgia's borders are respected, the sooner a settlement of Georgia's internal disputes can be achieved and regional security enhanced.” VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

"Pigmentally-controverted"? "Etiolated"? "Albumin-like"? Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Very nice! Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

[sarcasm] "pigmentally-challenged mono-textured cellulose" [/sarcasm] "cellulose" is an older term with a lot of emotion behind it. If you went through the issues the various printing houses went through during the 40's and 50's - then I'd think you wouldn't be so casual just tossing that term around like you do. I can't believe just how insensitive you are being right now. It saddens me just how much more enlightenouseousness is needed today in this world - and especially your country - whichever it is. My apologies, I was ignorant of its historical and cultural ramifications. How about “pigmentally-challenged mono-textured non-lignin plant-derived writing material”? Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

“more akin to” … and the methodology was logical extrapolation from your assertions and boundary conditions. And that’s fine if that what you see. By your argument it is more akin to the argument you’ve made against Asian, i.e., because it’s too large of a geographic descriptor and it doesn’t fit the assumed/assigned phenotypic or behavioral characteristics. You “like” Amerindian more than Asian so you use that. You “like” Oriental more than Asian so you use that. Okay, if you want to use CIA classifications as the metric, what does the CIA use? Most generally: Asian. If one needs to be more specific: “East Asian” (which means China, ROK, DPRK, Japan, Taiwan), “South Asian” (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh), “Southeast Asian” (which includes the ASEAN states, i.e., Thailand, Vietnam. Indonesia, Cambodia, Myanmar [nee Burma], Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore, Brunei, Laos). Or even more specific: “Han Chinese,” “Zhuang Chinese,” “Manchu Chinese,” “Hui Chinese,” “Uyghur Chinese,” “Tibetan Chinese,” [any idea what phenotype those last two groups exhibit?], “Karen Burmese” “Khmer Cambodian,” etc. Those are ethnic groups. “Oriental” is a historical artifact not an ethnic group. Depending on the situation, I would concur. If one wants to be precise in communications a more specific regional designation like “East Asian” may be appropriate or a precise ethnic group may be needed to understand intra-national issues, e.g., Punjabi vs Pashtun Pakistanis, or for ethnic groups that reside in multiple nation-states, e.g., Pashtun from Afghanistan and Pakistan, Tajiks living in Afghanistan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan. Alternatively, one can use the nation-state name. Similarly, based on your argument, that’s largely why “Oriental” is so problematic: in the 21st Century, the term can refer to anything from a recently deceased Egyptian-Palestinian literary scholar at Columbia Univ (in NYC) to a Turkish national museum (Anatolian artifacts) to an Italian restaurant in Kyoto (Japan) to a rug from Pakistan. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

[sarcasm] "pigmentally-challenged mono-textured cellulose" [/sarcasm] Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Yes, if you don't belive that look on a Map of Asia. Northeast Asia is all Russia. This may make more sense now – you’re redefining geographical descriptors to fit the usage you want. Today East Asia is most commonly -- from US State Dept to CDC to CIA to DoD to NATO to UN -- verbiage for Japan, China, Taiwan, DPRK, and ROK, not Southeast Asia. Although historically (WWII), the term SACSEA did apply to Lord Montbatton throughout all of the Pacific theater. NATO still uses SACEUR but I don't know when the last SACSEA post existed (end of WWII?). So if you want to build a case based on WWII NATO commands, I've given you an example. Russia is usually considered central Asia (since the predominance of the land mass is central Asia) or West Asia (since that's the predominant political mass, i.e., Moscow & St Petersburg). As another counterexample, if you assert China is Southeast Asia and therefore Oriental … what phenotypic characteristics do you think native folks in Xianxiang exhibit? Fabulous, then we concur. As “Amerindian” is more akin to calling someone from Asia, the Middle East, or Near East “Oriental,” than using a political boundary based term like “Mexican” (if one is a Mexican national, whether Amerindian/Native American or Spanish in ancestral origin). If one is from the geographical boundary (on a map) of the Asian continent or from any of the countries that make up Asia similarly they are “Asian” (rather than “Oriental,” which is an ambiguous historical term). /Marg ... heading off to the airport Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Are you really sure you want to use that Wikipedia snippet (not even a full sentence) to base your argument? You claimed that Southeast Asia = "Orient". The quote you cite above suggests, Oriental = Japanese and Chinese. Are you asserting that Japan and China are Southeast Asia? Again, I've previously referenced 20th and 21st Century examples of the use of "Orient" and "Oriental" to mean anything and everything from Eastern Europe to Kyoto: (If, like the quoted phrase, one wants to extend to the 19th Century, it's going to be a lot longer list of examples.) One of the most famous ‘Orientals’ was Edward Said [jpg], he was from the Levant and died in 2003. The Museum of the Ancient Orient, which opened in 1917 and one can visit today, is in Turkey; it displays Anatolian pieces from Hittite empires (Turkey) and pre-Islamic items from the Ottoman Empire. The School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS) at the University of London covers all of Asia, including India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and former Soviet States; the Near East; the Middle East; and Africa. It was originally the School of Oriental Studies when created in 1916. One can study those areas there today. The Oriental Institute at the University of Chicago (today, still that name) is world-renowned for its ancient Near-eastern artifacts (specifically Sumerian); the institute’s archeological interests range from Anatolia (ancient Turkey) to Nubia (ancient southern Egypt and Northern Sudan), through Syria, Yemen and Iraq (Mesopotamia) to Persia (Iran). What was the termini of the Orient Express in 2001? (Budapest). Throughout the 19th and 20th Century other termini included Athens, Venice, Bucharest, and Istanbul. From 1900 - 1947, what was the terminus of the British P&O shipping line? India. The Garden Oriental is an Italian restaurant in Kyoto that I ate at a few years ago (okay, that one's another new example ). /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Actually the Wikipedia that you cite supports what consistently I’ve written (& does not support your assertions). Let’s revisit and examine. You quote the Wikipedia article on “Asian People”: Where do you think the Near East is? In addition to the examples disproving your claims that "Orient" = "Southeast Asia" (Orient Institute, Oriental Express), where do you think the Mizrahi ('Oriental') Jews originate from? (One more example ... I can keep providing them as they occur to me.) Back to what I wrote previously That pretty much sounds like the Wikipedia quote *you* cite. And what I have asserted consistently: That the ambiguity of the term “Oriental” is part of why it’s not a particularly useful term other than as a historic artifact or mild invective Since you prefer Wikipedia, perhaps you missed this from the entry you cited: (I.e., history is important when considering evolution of language, as I've written before.) Or from the Wikipedia entry on “Oriental Studies” No one ever said it was … I tried to use an example of an inadvertent mistake I made while I was moderating discussions between Indian and Pakistani nuclear physicists and military officers on the Kashmir conflict in Moscow in July 2003. The geographic label was not relevant to what was being discussed in Moscow; use of an innapropriate word was problematic for communication. Additionally, I chose to not stubbornly persist or rationalize, but instead acknowledged the error and refocused on the issue. In this conversation, I tried to use it to illustrate how problematic the use of imprecise (or wrong) labels is. Previously I did not go into this pedantic exegesis because I thought that was obvious; I apologize for the misassumption on my part. Since you bring up the use of the term "Orient" in the context of India, however, where do you think the British P&O line terminated? The East Peninsular and Oriental Steamship was the main line for British travelers to India during the last century or so of British colonial rule, named because India was considered part of the Orient. Much of the objection to the use of the term Oriental can actually be credited to/blamed on British Colonials in India, such as Thomas Macaulay, who was the architect of Britain's Educational Policy in India and who wrote: “We must do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern, a class of persons Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, words and intellect. I never found one among Orientals, who could deny that a single shelf of a good European library was worth the whole native literature of India and Arabia. It is, no exaggeration to say, that all the historical information which has been collected from all the books written in Sanskrit language is less valuable than what may be found in the most paltry abridgments used at preparatory schools in England.” Sanskrit is a classical langauge of India, not China, Korea, Japan, Thailand, Cambodia or any of the areas of East Asia or Southeast Asia. Where do you think Orient Technologies is located? Mumbai, New Delhi, Bangalore … showing the historical artifact of Orient as an identifier for India. Orient Technologies doesn’t make rugs; they are an IT company. It comes down to you wanting to hold on to use of word that makes it difficult for you to communicate precisely because of its ambiguity. Someone else pointed out that for large number of people, it’s considered offensive. You reacted dismissing that assertion. (Very few people like to be challenged as being offensive -- altho' there may be a few who seem to take pride it -- and even fewer like to be told they’re wrong. Myself among them.

Concur. It’s been well established that the number of individual genetic differences within a “race” (or localized population) are greater than between “races.” And not dissimilar to Oriental vs Occidental labels. ---- ---- ---- Imo, the objection to use of "African-American" is a contrived controversy to deflect from talking and thinking about more substantive and more difficult issues that frequently do not have single, simple causative independent variables or single points that *any* person or group can pinpoint for blame: infant mortality; primary education, including greater exposure to lead-based paint (which negatively impacts neurological development & exposure is 5x greater for black children than white children); absence/abrogation of responsibility of too many black fathers; and economics, including income disparity, access to healthcare, and (child) poverty rates. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Yes, including but not limited to -- Senator Sam Nunn (Georgia, former chair Senate Armed Services Committee, offered SecDef twice by President Bush before Mr. Rumsfeld) -- Governor Bill Richardson (New Mexico, former Ambassador, former Sec of Energy) -- Governor Tim Kaine (Virginia) -- Senator Evan Bayh (Indiana, currently on SASC) -- Governor Kathleen Sebelius (Kansas) -- Senator Joe Biden (Delaware, currently chair Senate Foreign Relations Committee) VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Two speculations: In OSS, CP meant civilian personal. CPC may refer to a civilian pay grade, like GS-15 or YA-3 today. It may also have referred to the area in which he worked, not completely dissimilar to MOS in today’s US military. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying