nerdgirl

How did you get to the opinion that this is a viable method? What did you see, read, &/or experience that prompted that conclusion? VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Al-Qaeda & Taliban unlawful combatant detainees, unlawful belligerency, and the international laws of armed conflict Sounds like an intellectually provocative article - thanks for the citation. Printing it out to read. The legal concept of hostes humani generis was originally applied to pirates & highway robbers. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

How did you get to this opinion? What did you see, read, &/or experience that prompted that conclusion? VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

He voted for Bush. That may be the case ... & it may be relevent or may not be relevent. There are a lot of people who voted for President GW Bush who oppose torture. The partisan explanation doesn't advance my understanding of the thought process that supports torture. And frankly in this forum, that's my selfish motive. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Thanks for bring the LLW into the discussion.

Those are strawmen. Those are not the type of activities that are being called torture. If one continues reading the field manuals I linked, one would find answers to those questions. The professional military interrogators are clear. The actions and behavior to which I object and to which Sen McCain objects are the behavior that led to convictions (i.e., laws that were broken) for prisoner abuse and maltreatment in Iraq and abuse at Bagram in Afghanistan; the behaviors detailed the DoD’s (MG) Taguba report; the findings of the Army’s (MG) Fay report, which explicitly found that the abuse and maltreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib was tantamount to torture (p. 98 & p. 145); what’s been publically revealed about findings of the Army’s (still classified) Ryder report; and documented medical evidence are behaviors like beating, physical trauma, intentional psychological, trauma (long term sensory deprivation, threat of anal rape, threat of death, simulated electrocution, etc), use of military dogs for threatened violence, and (not "or") waterboarding. Somewhat ironically, the only ones in this debate … as manufactured as it has been to some extent … who have been ‘talking’ about being nice are the active duty and retired Marines who are members of the United States Marine Corps Interrogator Translator Teams Association, whose journal masthead reflects their experience and opinion: “…despite the complexities and difficulties of dealing with an enemy from such a hostile and alien culture, some American interrogators consistently managed to extract useful information from prisoners. The successful interrogators all had one thing in common in the way they approached their subject. They were nice to them.” The USMC interrogators direcr experience and advice include recommendations like know their language, know their culture, and treat the captured enemy as a human being, was written up in this June 2005 article largely inspired by Marines discussing it on their version of Speakers Corner. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

If torture causes the loss of life of an American soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine would you be against it? As Sen McCain stated, torture is a; Qa’eda’s “greatest recruiting tool” – therefore torture is leading to more terrorists. More terrorists equals greater risk for US uniformed service and civilians. Do you really not see that? Or does something else drive you to want torture to be used? (I don't know how to say that differently and still succinctly ....) I'm genuinely asking because I can't figure out how with all the information out there showing torture is (1) ineffective; (2) increases risk to US uniformed service members, deployed civilians, and overseas Americans; and (3) is counter to US strategic interests and makes implementing & executing actions in support of US strategic interests more difficult; why anyone would still support it? I just don't get it. Or is there some reason that you want to be 'for torture'? VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Reportedly, a Saudi national has offered to pay $10M for the shoes thrown at President Bush. Also alleged/reported background on the shoe-thrower. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

I've appreciated more fully others' arguments. I've appreciated more fully a wider perspective. I've observed the thought processes that underly some opinions ... & sometimes I'm still trying to figure it out ... correlation/causality/theory/hypothesis ... not the same things ... I've learned about underlying arguments that make me respect more the stance of the proponents or adherants. I've had some great conversations in PMs and emails that have changed my perspectives and opinions. So yes, in multiple situations to varying degrees, I've done (1) & (2). And I still (as I posted before) think the most effective anti-gun regulation argument was in a video posted by [Rookie120] a while back. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

No, apparently he doesn't. Whatever one's opinion on President Bush and his policies ... ugh ... throwing shoes is not an effective way to deal with policies. I also wonder at the cultural associations (not positive ones) of the bottom of shoes predominant in that part of the world. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

We should not use torture because it is (1) ineffective; (2) increases risk to US uniformed service members, deployed civilians, and overseas Americans; (3) it's counter to US strategic interests and makes implementing & executing actions in support of US strategic interests more difficult; and (4) it is normatively (ethics, morals) wrong. For some folks that still does not seem be enough. So we have another reason, which actually falls under reason (3) above. Nonetheless, Sen McCain's comments were incisive and insightful: "you can't underestimate the damage that our treatment of prisoners, both at Abu Ghraib and other [facilities, has] ... harmed our national security interests.” His words, not mine. Can you point to any? On the contrary, I can (& have repeatedly, see links in OP) point to traditional interrogation methods (no torture & no "enhanced interrogation methods") doing just that. If it's ineffective (doesn't work), puts US military at risk, isncounter to US strategic objectives, is normatively wrong, and serves as a recruitment tool for al Qa'eda, to what benefit is pursuit of that tactic? No nuclear weapons states have ever gone to war with each other - does that mean the US policy should be proliferation of nuclear weapons? VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

The whole "sheepdog" thing is pretentious BS anyway. Why even drag that into this? Good point ... you're right. My bad. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Beyond the arguments & evidence, demonstrating unequivocally the ineffectiveness of torture, the fallacy of the Hollywood ”24” scenarios, the increased risk to US uniformed service members and other US civilians abroad, torture has produced bad/faulty intel that has been passed on to US policymakers the unequivocal repudiation of use of torture by the US Army and by the USMC (are they “naïve”?), and and the moral and ethical arguments against torture… there’s another reason: Use of torture and Orwellian-"enhanced interrogation" has been the “greatest recruiting tool” for al Qa’eda, al Qa’eda in Iraq, and other insurgents targeting US soldiers, airmen, sailors, Marines, deployed civilians, and US nationals abroad. Who said that? Some geriatric hippie (or hippy) activist? Some UC Berkeley law school prof … who wrote the justifications for use of torture in 2002, 2003, & 2004 … or some Harvard law prof, who supported torture? Someone who has avoided service to one’s country (whether uniformed or not)? No. “… a year and a half ago, Senator Lindsey Graham and I were in Iraq. We were in the prison. The general, our U.S. general in charge of prison had us in a secluded area and met a former high-ranking member of Al Qaida, one of the toughest guys I've ever seen. I said, how did you succeed so well after the initial American victory? He said, ‘Two things’ -- he said, ‘One’ -- he said, ‘there was no control by your troops. It was total lawlessness. There was rape, looting, pillage, murder, settling of old scores. So there was lawlessness.’ ‘Second, the greatest recruiting tool we [al Qa'eda in Iraq] had -- we were able to recruit thousands of young men,’ he said, ‘was Abu Ghraib.’ “So you can't underestimate the damage that our treatment of prisoners, both at Abu Ghraib and other [facilities, has] ... harmed our national security interests.” “What I am interested in and committed to is making sure we don't do it again. We're in this long twilight struggle here, and so America's prestige and image, as we all know, was damaged by these stories of mistreatment. And we've got to make sure the world knows that that's not the United States of America that they knew and appreciated for centuries.” Supporting the troops means opposing all use of torture. All. By all. Against all. We -- America -- are better … or we claim to be. Don’t lower the standards to radical Islamists. If it’s wrong for them to do, it’s wrong for us – anything less is the perhaps the ultimate moral relativism. [Edit to delete comment that distracts from overall post and deserves its own thread.] --- --- -- --- -- --- --- Which prompts me to a more ponderous question & question borne of frustration: given all of the irrefutable evidence & documentation (some of that documentation by the US military) of use of torture by representatives of the US and the undeniable lack of arguments in support of torture, what drives some of you to still support torture? Late last week in an email conversation, another dz.commer asked “What’s wrong with our society?” That was in context of discovery of Caylee’s [last name?] body in Florida. “What’s wrong with our society” that some still think torture is a “good” response? What’s wrong with Christianity in America that Jesus Christ can be used as a rationalization for torture? The information is out there. Heck, it’s been delivered directly to you .... no need for personal responsibility to find it yourself. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

A. Huh? B. Are you honestly saying that Jesus Christ of Nazareth would condone torture? For any reason? C. I have seen that you are willing to bend the scripture to say anything you want. D. Huh? Thanks Dan. [Ion01]’s comments made me ashamed to identify as a Christian who attended church this morning. Where are all the usual defenders of Christianity around here? Do you need to be called out by name? Question for the Christian apologists for torture: Who would Jesus torture? /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Close ... it was Fermi (U of Chicago) who proposed the back-of-the-envelope wager that the Trinity test might ignite the atmosphere, either of New Mexico or around the planet. Hans Bethe (Cornell) & Robert Serber (the-UIUC/later Columbia) showed that it was wrongly theoretically; the Trinity test showed that the wager was wrong experimentally. It's always good when experiment confirms theory - especially when the destruction of the atmosphere is involved. Luckily, it was Bethe/Serber whose theory was proved correct and not Fermi!! Just because the words get mis-used interchangebly/confused too frequently, imo: what Fermi proposed was a notional hypothesis. A "what if?" that was literally presented as a wager. Perhaps the ultimate sort of "hey do you think I can do "X" without killing/injuring/incapacitating myself? Bethe and Serber did a robust theoretical study with calculations based on mathematical and physical theories of the atom, gas mechanics, electromagnetism, thermodynamics, and radioactivity. Teller had one done by LANL scientists as well, which is now declassified. VR/Marg

“Are insurgents thugs?” You seem to be creating a question that’s not a question or is almost tautological – riots implicitly are acts against a perceived power and outside a government system, e.g., Haymarket Massacre of Chicago. Frequently against representatives of the state, whether police or firefighters. There were lots of different players. Yes, folks came from outside/north of the 10. I actually didn’t observe any directly (I was there; I wasn’t running around on the streets… there’s sometimes a fine line between intestinal fortitude & stupid, that one I recognized ) but suspect we saw the same footage of white folks in areas white folks didn’t usually go. Hispanics in areas that typically one didn’t see Hispanics, etc. Asians in areas that one didn’t typically see Asians, etc. All carrying tv’s, etc out of vandalized businesses. Those folks were opportunistic criminals. The violence erupted from rage at perceived long-standing injustice. Whether correctly perceived or not. Some (minority) took advantage of that for personal gain. More folks were harmed in the long run due to closing of business and damages. I suspect you remember also that once the rioting started moving northwest to Wilshire Blvd, it was squelched - quickly. What sort of breakdown has to occur in order to get to the point at which riots erupt, whether in LA or Athens? With the Greek riots, the component that piqued my attention was the possibility of Greek domestic politics impacting international affairs and US defense policy. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

No, that "story line" did not come out after the riots started. All reports have been consistent that the shooting Saturday evening (whether intentional or accidental) was the single incident that pushed a more complex set of causal and proximal factors over the edge. The hurling 'petrol bombs' first occurred Sunday. That shooting sparked additional protests in Thessaloniki, Patras, on Crete, and other Greek cities. Did any of you look at any of the links I posted? Or do you have other sources to support those assertions? From the English language version of the Greek newspaper article I linked in my OP: "However, footage of Saturday’s shooting, captured by a witness on her mobile phone does not appear to show Korkoneas [the arrested police officer] and his colleague coming under any kind of threat. "The blurred, dark images appear to show the police officer standing at some distance from the 15-year-old and other youths. "There appear to be no signs of the police officers coming under any kind of attack. "Korkoneas has been charged with murder and illegal use of a weapon while his colleague has been charged as an accomplice." From the Fox News story I linked in the OP: "The policemen's lawyer, Alexis Cougias, told reporters that a ballistics examination showed that 15-year-old Alexandros Grigoropoulos was killed by a ricochet and not a direct shot. One of the officers had claimed he had fired warning shots and did not shoot directly at the boy. "Unfortunately this tragedy is the result ... of an act by the policeman to fire into the air. The bullet ricocheted, we have an entry wound from above," Cougias told reporters outside the courthouse. "It proves irrefutably that it was a ricochet." [Edit to add: if that is true, & I am inclined to give more credence to ballistic evidence than *anyone's* hearsay at this point, it suggests that the discussion regarding where to shoot an individual is mute/irrellevant w/r/t the Greek riots ... what's the line about facts getting in the way of a good argument?]"He said the ballistics report was not yet complete but said he had been informed of its contents by authorities. There was no comment from prosecutors, who do not make public statements on pending cases. "Authorities are investigating reports officers used their pistols to fire warning shots in the air during Tuesday's riots. "Greece has a long legacy of activism; it was a student uprising that eventually brought down a seven-year military junta in 1974." From today's English language Kathimerini on-line: "The 37-year-old police officer charged with the murder on Saturday of 15-year-old Alexis Grigoropoulos yesterday told an investigating magistrate that he had fired his gun into the air in self-defense as his lawyer claimed that a coroner’s report shows the boy was killed by a ricocheting bullet. "In a written statement, special guard Epaminondas Korkoneas said he fired his gun into the air 'two or three times' while he and a fellow officer had been under attack by some 30 youths in the central Athens district of Exarchia. He added that the youths had been pelting them with stones, bottles and other items and shouting, 'Cops, bums, we’re going to burn you alive.' In his statement, the officer does not express any regret for his actions. "The officer’s lawyer, Alexis Kougias, spoke of 'one big misunderstanding.'” And that may be the mis-underestimation of the year for Greece. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Assuming (always a dangerous supposition) that what you wrote reflects the totality of the situation & causal factors, where was the breakdown that went from one dead teenage criminal to multiple days of riots that may bring down a government? VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

I was a few miles (literally) north of intersection of Florence and Normandie Avenues during the 1992 riots/uprising. Most of my colleagues went behind the "Orange curtain" (to Orange county). I stayed throughout the entire time. Or Payless Shoes ... or Baskin-Robbins. Those stores were looted during the 1992 riots/uprising too. That's a very small sliver & one perspective of many on the 1992 LA riots/uprising. I’m not sure if you were being sarcastic or serious with the claim that the LA riots started for “fun”? The criminal events at the intersection of Florence and Normandie Aves escalated in no small part because the police pulled back *before* it started. Remember the news videos from hovering helicopters? Who came and rescued/saved Reginald Denny? (A black citizen of South Central LA who saw what was going on & saw no one [read: police] was coming in.) The only group that would go in was the firefighters, and once they became targets, they pulled back. Eventually Governor Wilson called in the National Guard and the later the response was federalized and active duty Army & Marines were deployed (Title 10 troops). It largely was the intervention of the Army that brought the end. If it happened today, I speculate it would be called an insurgency. There was a palpable sense – beyond the usual omnipresent and insidious hopelessness of South Central LA – of simmering of emotions and anticipated injustice as the announcement of the verdict from Simi Valley of the trial of the police officers accused of beating Rodney King, which compounded the perceived injustice related to the Latasha Harlins (sp?) verdict (perception: Korean shop keeper kills black girl with no consequences). You may disagree with the perception of injustice but that *was* (and still is for some) the perception; perceptions drive actions. That was the era of LAPD Chief Darryl (sp?) Gates. An era which was characterized by racial profiling and corruption: remember the Christopher Commission& “Operation Hammer”? There was high unemployment. It was unusually hot and humid for LA in April … heck, it was unusually hot & humid for LA in July or August. My hypothesis is that incidence of riots is inversely proportional to distance from the equator. When was the last time you heard of a riot in Norway? Now all of that may … or may not relate to the Athens riots. The 1992 LA riots were about a lot more than “fun”; again I’m unsure if the characterization was meant as serious or sarcasm. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Close ... it was Fermi (U of Chicago) who proposed the back-of-the-envelope wager that the Trinity test might ignite the atmosphere, either of New Mexico or around the planet. Hans Bethe (Cornell) & Robert Serber (the-UIUC/later Columbia) showed that it was wrongly theoretically; the Trinity test showed that the wager was wrong experimentally. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Interesting question. Of all the things that I may be qualified to pontificate on expertly or even marginally , Greek domestic politics is not among them.* (*except terrorist groups). The comparative case that occurs to me is Spain. Both Greece and Spain were ruled by dictatorships (of varying ruthlessness and regime style) until 1975. Spain's civil unrest have been more directed externally against immigrants (2000 and 2008) and fuel. Perhaps ... also think that the political range in Greece extends much further at both ends of the political spectrum. But that is true for other countries in Europe and throughout the world. Just speculation ... VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Anyone else following the riots in Greece? “Athens riots spin totally out of control” “Greek police shooting sparks riot” “Greece strike hit by violence” “Clashes Erupt at Greek Court as Police Are Jailed in Teen's Death” “As riots continue, Greece faces political crisis” “Anarchists' fury fuels Greek riots” “Greek riots are tearing the country apart” “Greece riots: timeline” One perspective of potential consequences: The current Greek government, led by PM Costas Karamanlis (center-right), has supported the NATO-ISAF efforts in Afghanistan (as a “contributing nation”), and the US hopes that Greece might take a more active part in the future. The center-left and socialist parties are calling for Karamanlis to step down (as he is seen as having failed to deal effectively with the initial event [shooting of teen by police] and has failed to quelch the subsequent violence]. Already been some discussion as to how riots (domestic politics) may impact (decrease or lessen liklihood) future participation of Greece troops directly or support in Afghanistan. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

On what criteria do you base your assertion? Example 1: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3401404;search_string=%5Bion01;#3401404 Example 2: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3388701;search_string=%5Bion01;#3388701 Example 3: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3417849;search_string=%5Bion01;#3417849 (from yesterday) Perhaps it’s hubris on my part (?) but there are three responses that seem to meet your criterion of (1) facts, (2) logical arguments, and (3) references … & (4) I even try to be nice about it (a normative value). Facts, logical arguments, and even references have been presented by others than me … the latter is just an easier search function. One might ask why are you ignoring those replies? VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Would you provide an example or two of what you are referring to in the last phrase, specifically w/r/t the US military? Thanks. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

It would be interesting to plot “freedom” (of which there are quantitative & semi-quantitative measures) versus prosperity (one may use per capita income *&* GDP as stand-in variables). These folks did one analysis (they self-identify as advocates of "libertarian and free market liberal ideology"). Depending on how it’s done Estonia or Ireland come out on top. Here's another (p. 4). Again Ireland has most political freedom & most economic freedom. Japan is another one that rates high on political freedom and economic freedom scales, yet per Mr. lamb's description it would fit more as a "socialist" state. Singapore is an interesting out-lier. How far toward what the cited Op-Ed by Mr. Lamb suggests is characteristic of a socialist government do Ireland or Estonia look like? Otoh, prosperity in some states is linked to the price of oil. There is “a literal correlation that could be measured and graphed—between the price of oil and the pace, scope, and sustainability of political freedoms and [market-based] economic reforms,” i.e., lower oil $ =’s more freedom around the world and lower price of oil = less prosperity for some states. “The First Law of Petropolitics posits the following: The price of oil and the pace of freedom always move in opposite directions in oil-rich petrolist states. According to the First Law of Petropolitics, the higher the average global crude oil price rises, the more free speech, free press, free and fair elections, an independent judiciary, the rule of law, and independent political parties are eroded. And these negative trends are reinforced by the fact that the higher the price goes, the less petrolist leaders are sensitive to what the world thinks or says about them. Conversely, according to the First Law of Petropolitics, the lower the price of oil, the more petrolist countries are forced to move toward a political system and a society that is more transparent, more sensitive to opposition voices, and more focused on building the legal and educational structures that will maximize their people’s ability, both men’s and women’s, to compete, start new companies, and attract investments from abroad. The lower the price of crude oil falls, the more petrolist leaders are sensitive to what outside forces think of them.” Now democracy does not = freedom … nor does correlation = causality. But doesn’t it make you go “hmmm?” (Okay, there’s probably some out there who are going “yawn.”)