nerdgirl

Just want to make sure that I'm understanding correctly, neither agreeing nor disagreeing at this point: You are claiming that socialized medicine is a "God given and constitutionally guaranteed right" ? Therefore you're in favor of USG subsidized universal healthcare for all Americans? VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Yes, and that marked the beginning of hemophilia into the British royal line. It killed one of Queen Victoria's sons. The Hapsburg 'lip' was another example of a congenital defect due to intermarriage in European royal families. Differences include (1) It was not illegal at the time. (2) By luck or whatever, those are either non-life threatening or are treatable/controllable diseases, unlike fumarase deficiency. (3) The royal families generally did bring in new gene pools in prior or successive generatons, again unlike the FLDS. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Fantastic! "Tuna: cocaine for cats." I have that TI calculator. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

"Not only that, more than 61 percent of the historians say the current presidency is the worst in American history." Yes, I disagree with the 61% cited there. "It found that 98 percent of them believe that Bush's presidency has been a failure, while only about 2 percent see it as a success." I’d like to understand how the polled professional historians came to their conclusions – what was their reasoning & thinking? What was the criteria (or metrics) for determining failure? Anyone have a link to more information? It’s almost a truism that w/in human life times and recent history, we look back & imagine things better than they were. I suspect that history will be kinder to President Bush than current opinion & analyses. E.g., Presidents Lincoln and FD Roosevelt were despised by many during their administrations and now regarded as among the top 5 Presidents. (NB: It would be surprising to me if President Bush’s historical assessment mimicked Lincoln’s and FDR’s, but there are some that do argue now for that parallel.) IMO, much of history’s view will be dependent on what is the situation 30y+ in Iraq. If it’s a thriving or even mediocre, non-failing state (& unlikely to be a US-style Republic with Maryland’s traffic codes, but neither Germany nor Japan exactly replicate the US), he will be regarded more kindly; if it’s a failing or failed state, he will not. That was the big risk he took. Pessimistically, military history is likely to see this as one more time where a large state failed to follow-through on counter-insurgency strategy through transition and reconstruction. Of course, one could argue, my crystal ball has as much fidelity as anyone elses.

This sort of bugs me. I seriously doubt that polygamy has anything to do with sexual predation. Perhaps considering the quote from the article in terms of polygamy in which girls as young as 12 & 13 (allegedly) are married to 50-year olds is a less problematic? Or maybe not? Contextually, the situation that Ted Tarby is describing in his quote is very different from the normative issues of 3 or more consenting adults chosing to pursue a polyamorous type of relationship. (Since whether one agrees with the law or not, polygamy is illegal.) VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

The central questions underlying this both of ethical & pragmatic nature; I'm not sure they can be disentangled. Should taxpayers subsidize medical care for children affected by severe birth defects because of the FLDS’ practice of first-cousin marriages? Or should children be denied medical care because of their parents’ “choices”? Here’s another reason to be critical of Warren Jeffs and the FLDS, especially if you are an Arizona taxpayer. The FLDS community of Colorado City (nee Short Creek) and the adjacent community across the Utah border has the *world’s highest incidence* of a genetic birth defect causing severe mental retardation, severe epileptic seizures, inability to walk or even sit upright, severe speech impediments, failure to grow at a normal rate, physical deformities, and/or death called fumarase deficiency. Before identification in the FLDS community there had fewer than 100 incidences reported worldwide. It’s caused by a recessive gene, but when two very closely related individuals both carry the gene, their child is more likely to have the condition. Here’s the part for Arizona taxpayers: From 29 Dec 2005 issue of the Phoenix AZ New Times: “Forbidden Fruit: Inbreeding among polygamists along the Arizona-Utah border is producing a caste of severely retarded and deformed children.” The incidence has been reported other places, but this seems to be the starting expose. “The state not only ignored the crimes for decades, it helped facilitate them by allowing the FLDS polygamists to set up a town government, a public school district and a police department that have received tens of millions of dollars in taxpayer funds despite the fact that polygamy violates Arizona’s Constitution. The FLDS has had an iron grip on the local governments, because it has been impossible to get elected or hired to a taxpayer-funded post without the church’s blessing. “The fundamentalist community has also benefited immensely from state health-care services for the poor and indigent by receiving more than $12 million a year in state assistance in Arizona to pay for health-insurance premiums. “It turns out that taxpayers also have been footing the bill for the fumarase deficiency children born to polygamists who insist that plural marriage involving close relatives is their divine right.” “‘They think it is a test from God,’ says Wyler, who was born and raised in the FLDS before he was booted out” [who’s paying for the consequences of their decisions? - nerdgirl] ‘People don't like to talk about their fumarase babies for obvious reasons,’ Wyler says. ‘I don’t know how many who die within the first two or three years that we don’t even ever know about.’ “In fact, the state’s willingness to provide medical assistance to afflicted children may be allowing Utah families to receive treatment paid for by Arizona taxpayers. ‘I don’t know if all the patients I treat are technically eligible for my services [because they may live out of state],’ [Dr.] Tarby says [the pediatric neurologist who initially identified fumarase deficiency in the FLDS community - nerdgirl].” This is direct causation and genetic forensic evidence of intermarriage of first cousins, which is illegal in Arizona. “An MRI of the brain of one fumarase deficiency child showed that more than half the brain was missing. “Tarby says most of the children ‘can say at least a word or two,’ but that all of them ‘have severe mental retardation’ with IQs of less than 25.” Legally, can an individual with an IQ of

Yes – as illustrated as vividly by Timothy McVeigh, who was a decorated soldier in the US Army, who planned and executed the Oklahoma City bombing, and who was convicted for his illegal actions. It’s a red herring: rhetorically equivalent to making allusions (or explicit comparisons) of President Bush to Hitler. Both were democratically elected leaders of western nation-states, both initiated armed conflicts beyond their territorially boundaries, and both are highly disliked throughout the world. Pres. Bush is NOT Hitler. At the other end of the spectrum, Rev Wright (or anyone else's) uniformed service does make them equivalent to Lt Michael Murphy, or SFC Paul Smith, or MSG Gary Gordon, or SFC Randy Shughart. (Some of us do remember their names, if not their ranks.) VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

And this guy is a Marine, & this guy was a decorated soldier. What's your point because it doesn't seem to have context to the topic? VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

These statements just didn’t seem to make sense to me … Can you point to something substantiating the “volunteered” $10M/year assertion? I assume you don't mean the $10M that was part of the 1903 Treaty that included a $10M payment upfront as well as annual payments by the US to the Panama govt for usage of the land ... ... but something from the Panama Canal Treaty of 1977. $10M actually appears 3 times in the 1997 treaty. Excerpts about $10M: Article III Section 5 “The Panama Canal Commission [chaired by the US & with majority US membership, per Article III Sect 3(a&b) – nerdgirl] shall reimburse the Republic of Panama for the costs incurred by the Republic of Panama in providing the following public services in the Canal operation areas and in housing areas set forth in the Agreement in Implementation of Article III of this Treaty and occupied by both United States and Panamanian citizen employees of the Panama Canal Commission: police, fire protection, street maintenance, street lighting, street cleaning, traffic management and garbage collection. The Panama Canal Commission shall pay the Republic of Panama the sum of ten million United States dollars (US$10,000,000) per annum for the foregoing services. It is agreed that every three years from the date that this Treaty enters into force, the costs involved in furnishing said services shall be reexamined to determine whether adjustment of the annual payment should be made because of inflation and other relevant factors affecting the cost of such services.” $10M was payment for services rendered. It was privatization of services that had previously been done by employees of the USG. It made government operations smaller. The USG was no longer directly responsible but contracted them out for the interim period between 1989 & 1999, thereby giving the US oversight. How much do you think the US Treasury had paid for those services before? Or this? Additional Article XIII Section 4 “The Republic of Panama shall receive from the Panama Canal Commission a just and equitable return on the national resources which it has dedicated to the efficient management, operation, maintenance, protection and defense of the Panama Canal, in accordance with the following: “(a) [formula for dividing revenues between 1989 & 1999] “(b) A fixed annuity of ten million United States dollars (US$10,000,000) to be paid out of Canal operating revenues. This amount shall constitute a fixed expense of the Panama Canal Commission. “(c) An annual amount of up to ten million United States dollars (US$10,000,000) per year, to be paid out of Canal operating revenues to the extent that such revenues exceed expenditures of the Panama Canal Commission including amounts paid pursuant to this Treaty. In the event Canal operating revenues in any year do not produce a surplus sufficient to cover this payment, the unpaid balance shall be paid from operating surpluses in future years in a manner to be mutually agreed.” The money came from revenues generated from the operation of the Canal (tolls). There was no money volunteered for no reason rather … More importantly in the context of international trade (& the context of the other section), it shifted the responsibility for operation and maintenance of the canal between the time the treaty entered into force and the time the treaty ended (1999) with the US’s relinquishment of control (1989) under US oversight. So in the interim the US (& all of the US-based shipping operators as well as companies receiving goods transited through the Canal) would be assured that there was oversight and a period of transition. The US was already paying the expenses before. For 10 years, Panama was essentially a contractor; then in 1999, the US took the metaphorical ‘training wheels’ off and the contractor had to run the Canal (Corporation) on its own. From a strategic and economic security perspective that was *smart*! As far as it being evidence of President Carter’s negotiation skills or not, that’s something of a red herring. The negotiations and resulting treaty text are a result of State Department Political Appointees and State Depart Civil Servants. Yes, the President and his Sec of State sign and are ultimately responsible; the skilled negotiators come from the Foreign Service Officer Corps. Negotiations to relinquish operational and maintenance responsibility for the Panama Canal were initiated in 1971 under Pres Nixon’s administration. So his administration bears some responsibility or some credit depending on one’s perspective That’s fairly typical and strength – international treaties are strengthened when they extend beyond any single Presidential administration. Negotiations on the BWC were initiated under Pres. Johnson, the treaty was signed by Pres Nixon, and it entered in force under Pres. Ford. Negotiations on the CWC were initiated informally under Pres. Nixon, formally at the Conference on Disarmament under Pres. Reagan, and the treaty was signed by & entered into force under Pres Clinton. I learned something – so thanks! VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

It sounds like one of the accused’s rights are being respected. As far as due process of law: “State District Judge Barbara Walther held the preliminary hearing to prepare for Thursday's expected marathon session, when the state will plea for permanent custody of all of the children seized earlier this month from the ranch of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a renegade Mormon sect. “Gary Banks, a lawyer representing the state CPS, told the judge the state believes ‘there is a systematic process at the ranch near Eldorado at which children were exploited and sexually abused.’ “Walther was clearly struggling with how to organize the largest child-custody hearing in Texas history, and perhaps in the nation. She also said she was circulating a memo to church officials ‘to make sure they know they have a right and that right is guarded for them.’ [i.e., ensuring due process of law & protection of the rights of all the FLDS members, whether potential victims or lawbreakers].” Btw: there are reports of another investigation of sexual abuse of minor, this time in Colorado City (nee Short Creek), AZ. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Wouldn't surpise me at all. It's an interesting piece of correlation and the unexpected secondary or tertiary effects. Similar phenomenon has been observed in other areas – people alter their habits in ways that produce unexpected results. It’s actually got a name - the “Peltzman effect” for the U Chicago economist who originated the idea (back in the 1970s, iirc). The classic one: Seatbelts and air bag requirements correlate w/increased accidents. Safety features reduce the probability of death or serious injury to the driver in an accident, but the increased perception of safety causes some drivers to drive slightly more recklessly. What has been observed is that the severity of injury from accidents is decreased. Gets discussed in the context of nuclear (weapons & power) safety. One can speculate how the Peltzmann effect applies to skydiving and AADs. The consequences of small perturbations on large, coupled systems are hard to predict (nevermind control). Of course, it's still driving drunk still causes DUIs and DUI-related fatalities (i.e., lack of personal responsibility). VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

While there has been a lot of thoughtful dialogue – including some nuanced critical analyses and discussion in other threads here – there has also been that which is ‘less than diplomatic’ (to put it diplomatically). Unfortunately, I have not previously seen any acknowledgement of his military service or indication that anyone within this forum was aware of it. And unfortunately, I also strongly doubt that the nuanced and thoughtful discussions and dialogues on the state of race relations in 21st Century America are what inspired the two Republican veterans to pen the Op-Ed cited above. [Specific posts and threads from this forum, from the blog-o-sphere, and from commercial media sources -- i.e., the primary data -- sent via PM; anyone else can PM me … or use "Search Posts"/Google. Not a single one mentions Rev. Wright’s exemplary service record, while implicitly or explicitly challenging his loyalty and affinity to the country he served.] The point isn’t to defend or impugn Rev Wright or Sen Obama. The point is what I indicated above, as well as to introduce something that has not been widely acknowledged, or as Korb & Moss’ piece was titled “Factor military duty into criticism” - a Paul Harvey-esque “rest of the story.” As I wrote, I also don’t agree unilaterally w/Korb & Moss’ conclusions: serving as CINC 8 years (each, President Clinton & Bush) & as SecDef 4 years (VP Cheney) is patriotic service, regardless of my agreement or disagreement with the policies of each. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

...I sense your mind isn't really open to discussion. Hmmm...deja vu... Yep, thought it was such a good phrase that it deserved ... no, needed to be recycled. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

If someone needs to talk to Hamas, almost anyone would be better. Would you suggest a viable & preferable alternative? And why? Or to paraphrase, I suspect you have some constructive input but... ...I sense your mind isn't really open to discussion. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Can anyone explain the potential impact(s) of “say-on-pay” requirements for corporate governance in a non-partisan (any side), non-pejorative way, including difference or similarities to current corporate governance regulations/laws/standards? VR/Marg [Edit to add: this appears to be another instance in which legislation, "Shareholder Act on Executive Compensation," has already passed the House (by 269-134 vote) and Sen Obama is sponsor of the Senate version.] Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

That’s the question asked in a provocative Chicago Tribune Op-ed from 10 days ago with a challenging perspective by two retired veterans, one of whom also served as Assistant Secretary of Defense during President Reagan’s Administration. These guy suffer no lack of bona fides. In all of the discussion (to put it diplomatically) that has ensued w/r/t the Rev Wright videos, I find it curious that this has not been brought up before. Heard about it this morning on NPR. I don’t concur w/the implied answer that Korb and Moss suggest but not for the reasons underlying their argument. What a great illustration of how (1) complex the real world is, (2) how any narrow categorizing, valorizing, or condemning (people or people whom they associate by specific attributes) can be harshly limiting. VR/Marg - - -- --- ----- -------- “Factor military duty into criticism” “In 1961, a young African-American man, after hearing President John F. Kennedy's challenge to, ‘Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country,’ gave up his student deferment, left college in Virginia and voluntarily joined the Marines. “In 1963, this man, having completed his two years of service in the Marines, volunteered again to become a Navy corpsman. (They provide medical assistance to the Marines as well as to Navy personnel.) “The man did so well in corpsman school that he was the valedictorian and became a cardiopulmonary technician. Not surprisingly, he was assigned to the Navy's premier medical facility, Bethesda Naval Hospital, as a member of the commander in chief's medical team, and helped care for President Lyndon B. Johnson after his 1966 surgery. For his service on the team, which he left in 1967, the White House awarded him three letters of commendation. “What is even more remarkable is that this man entered the Marines and Navy not many years after the two branches began to become integrated. “While this young man was serving six years on active duty, Vice President Dick Cheney, who was born the same year as the Marine/sailor, received five deferments, four for being an undergraduate and graduate student and one for being a prospective father. Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, both five years younger than the African-American youth, used their student deferments to stay in college until 1968. Both then avoided going on active duty through family connections. “Who is the real patriot? The young man who interrupted his studies to serve his country for six years or our three political leaders who beat the system? Are the patriots the people who actually sacrifice something or those who merely talk about their love of the country? “After leaving the service of his country, the young African-American finished his final year of college, entered the seminary, was ordained as a minister, and eventually became pastor of a large church in one of America’s biggest cities. “This man is Rev. Jeremiah Wright, the retiring pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ, who has been in the news for comments he made over the last three decades. “Since these comments became public we have heard criticisms, condemnations, denouncements and rejections of his comments and him. “We’ve seen on television, in a seemingly endless loop, sound bites of a select few of Rev. Wright’s many sermons. “Some of the Wright’s comments are inexcusable and inappropriate and should be condemned, but in calling him “unpatriotic,” let us not forget that this is a man who gave up six of the most productive years of his life to serve his country. “How many of Wright's detractors, Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly to name but a few, volunteered for service, and did so under the often tumultuous circumstances of a newly integrated armed forces and a society in the midst of a civil rights struggle? Not many. “While words do count, so do actions. “Let us not forget that, for whatever Rev. Wright may have said over the last 30 years, he has demonstrated his patriotism. Lawrence Korb and Ian Moss are, respectively, Navy and Marine Corps veterans. Korb served as assistant secretary of Defense in the Reagan administration. Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

I concur w/r/t “Rolling Stone” being a less than ideal source for defense policy information. Interesting and occasionally intellectually provocative but not authoritative. You might find more credible citations from DefenseLINK, i.e., the “official web site for the Department of Defense.” ADM Mullen (CJCS) on “Local Partnerships Provide Key to Success in Iraq, Afghanistan, Mullen Says GEN David Petraeus on the Sons of Iraq & counter-insurgency strategy: “91,000 Sons of Iraq local security volunteers [volunteer as opposed to conscript – nerdgirl] are under contract to help coalition and Iraqi forces protect neighborhoods and secure infrastructure and roads, Petraeus said. These volunteers have helped to reduce violence and contributed to the discovery of improvised explosive devices and weapons caches, he said. The Sons of Iraq have been directly responsible for many lives and vehicles saved, and their value far outweighs the cost of the contracts to pay them, he said.” MG Rick Lynch, USA, who commands the MNF Division in the Basra area, on “Sons of Iraq security groups.” Army Col. Daniel S. Roper, director of the U.S. Army and Marine Corps Counterinsurgency Center at Fort Leavenworth, Explaining Counterinsurgency Efforts in Iraq. One more, from The Economist: "Another 90,000 paid volunteers, called the “Sons of Iraq”, have signed contracts to help Iraqi and coalition forces protect their neighbourhoods. These volunteers are armed and local, which makes them well-placed to spot any insurgents in their midst. They in effect pay for themselves, said the general [Petraeus during Tuesday's Congressional hearing - nerdgirl], since their wages are outweighed by the value of the army vehicles preserved since the violence has eased, not to mention the lives saved." If you want authoritative critiques of 'Sons of Iraq'/CLCs/counterinsurgency (COIN) efforts from a uniformed service member perspective (which I'm not), I would start with looking for comments by LTG Odierno (from ~6months ago) or LTC Gian Gentile, as a couple suggestions off the top of my head. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

These are the “Sons of Iraq” (nee Concerned Local Citizens (CLCs) groups) that GEN Petraeus mentioned multiple times during his Congressional testimony. It's part of the counter-insurgency strategy. I voted “It is temporary fix and we need permanent ones” as the closest choice to my opinion. It's a temporary measure to enable security and stability. Implementable and effective strategy and operationalization to transition those guys to 'normal' activities and to reconstruction is needed, or yes, the worse some of the worse speculations may come true when payment stops. The goal is to enable an Iraqi defense force to deal with that when/if it occurs and to enable reconstruction to progress so that the "Sons of Iraq" will have other, more productive things to do that build IEDs, EFPs, shoot at US or Iraqi service members, or shoot Iraqi police. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

What want to label “hearsay,” others, including myself and the judge who signed the warrants, would call “probable cause.” From the article you linked: “Rumors and speculation about alleged child physical and sexual abuse, underage marriages and holding people against their will inside the church are nothing new. They were raised four years ago in Eldorado and even more recently at the state capitol.” So there’s been hearsay for at least 4 years and nothing was done (!) “But until one 16-year old girl cried out officially for help just over a week ago, everyone says the same thing: they did not have probable cause to take action.” I’m really curious why you are so vociferously trying to find/create an excuse to criticize an action that some would argue was long overdue? I just don’t get it … There was probable cause, due process of law is being followed, there’s been evidence of ‘sensitivity’ on the part of law enforcement, there have been few arrests (yet ... as they are investigating a complaint in order to build cases for arrest if supported by evidence), and representatives of the FLDS are not being prevented from challenging the search in court. They are doing what you wrote you would recommend. They are not being prosecuted for their religion; they’re being investigating for violating the law. This is not an issue of normatives; it’s an issue of what is legal and what is not. The article to which you links notes that “for some [of the children and women], it’s their very first time voluntarily outside the church's locked gates.” What does that sound like? Again, what would you recommend have been done differently? Or more explicitly, would you recommend do nothing? ---*--- ***-*** ---*--- I’m not the only one who has noticed the similarities to the 1953 Short Creek raid. Isolation is how the next generation are controlled & indoctrinated into accepting and perpetuating abuse as norm, both the girls and boys. Almost all of the adult women and children voluntarily returned to the FLDS Short Creek settlement (& no one stopped them). There’s much wisdom in the characterization offered by then-Governor John Howard Pyle (R) of Arizona described the FLDS of Short Creek as “the foulest conspiracy you could possibly imagine” and that it “amounted to white slavery.” Pyle’s words predate what is a more apt comparison for the 21st Century: modern American-style Taliban. While Texas law enforcement is acting in the more recent historical ‘shadow’ of Waco, I hope many of equally cognizant of Short Creek. History is not predicative, but it should not be ignored either. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Yes, but I'd support an amendment changing that. Allowing exceptions to blanket prohibitions against infringements is a dangerous precedent. Laws don't mean anything when arbitrary exceptions are allowed without going through the same legislative process. When the Constitution doesn't reflect modern needs (like to recognize non-white males) it needs to be changed not ignored. Interesting theoretical construct. Except the differentiation isn’t arbitrary. The distinction between firearms and nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons along with others is based on arbitrary versus non-arbitrary effects, i.e., discriminate versus non-discriminate weapons. A firearm can be used in an exceedingly discriminatory manner, i.e., only hit the intended target, whereas NBC effects are indiscriminate (unless you're a Russian dissident being jabbed w/a ricin pellet containing umbrella tip). That’s the fundamental distinction … & a pretty important one, imo. (There is no non-arbitrary rational to distinguish between private and non-private property,but it’s a pretty important one too.) It’s a distinction made by groups of people coming to conclusions over long periods of time to make decesions on governance. Restrictions on use of CW & BW pre-date the 20th Century, e.g., Strasbourg Agreement of 1675, Declaration of St. Petersburg of 1868, Brussels Declaration Concerning the Laws and Customs of War of 1874. And differentiations were not limited to Europe: the Manu Smrti, an ancient foundation of Hindu law (BCE), prohibited the use of “treacherous weapons,” such as weapons “barbed, poisoned, or the points of which are blazing with fire.” VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Why are there so few people in the US who have been harmed by sulfur mustard in the last 50 years? First order reason, explanation is because there are extremely strict laws prohibiting possession (i.e., death is one punishment permissible w/in the statutes.) Second order reason, because it's hard (for the average citizen) to make without injuring oneself along the way, i.e., effectively weaponized sulfur mustard and munitions are very hard to get. Between those two, explain 99% of lack of domestic US harm caused by sulfur mustard (or any other CW). "Draconian" sentences for punishment and lack of access. Not an argument that I would want to take too far w/r/t private gun rights. By what metric are you measuring harm? Severe & excrutiatingly painful burns for which no antidote exists even today, temporary & very painful blindness, and cancer versus what? BTW: sulfur mustard is *not* a “gas” at any temperature you would want to be around. The boiling point is above 400F. Sulfur mustard actually decomposes in an oxygenated atmosphere before boiling. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Well, you prompted me to think more analytically and rigorously about the issue, so I appreciate that. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

As far as the publically available reports, that is what happened and is happening in the ongoing investigation. Do you have source that indicate otherwise? Who has been denied due process as you see it? Who’s being targeted for “guilt by association”? That may be a question for another post. A warrant has been issued for the arrest of the 50-yo “husband,” who has already pled guilty to a prior charge related to sexual abuse of a minor. Is anyone asking why this guy got 45 days & 3 years probation instead of longer jail term? His illegal behavior is also being rationalized: “his marriage to [the unnamed minor] seemed to me very natural and proper" by another member of the FLDS sect. I have not seen any accounts of arrests beyond what have been described as a couple of "minor arrests for tampering with evidence" during execution of the search warrants. Please edify me if you have. Per the reports available publically, there was balance and sensitivity on the part of the law enforcement. Allegedly they even waited to the very end of the search (under the search warrant) to enter the temple area. Do you ever reports to the contrary? The police had been attempting to contact a minor who indicated she had been abused for an unspecified number of days unsuccessfully. They may be required to investigate by law. To more accurately parallel the situation in your scenario, a minor must make a complaint, there must also be a multi-year informant within the low-income housing/compound, enough evidence needs to be gained to obtain a warrant, and the individuals need to be contacted before law enforcement arrives. If in the situation you described, (1) upon execution of a lawfully obtained warrant , (2) law enforcement observed evidence of neglect, abuse, or other crimes against the children , would they not be required by the law to remove those children from the site? Based on what was found during the investigation per the search warrant, the minors were removed by state Child Protective Service. All of what they found has not been disclosed; there was (remains?) a gag order in effect. From the Salt Lake Tribune, “18 of the girls remained in state custody, meaning they are considered to be under threat of physical, mental or sexual abuse, or of neglect, said Marleigh Meisner, spokeswoman for the Texas Child Protective Service.” I have not seen anything reported – please show sources if you have information otherwise – to suggest anything other than execution of due process of law. The FLDS is not being prevented from challenging the search. Fantastic. (If they were, I would argue that would be a problem.) May their challenge go forward and may the process that led to issue of the search warrants be found to be so ‘tight-n-right’ that the FLDS’ challenges are determined to lack merit. I absolutely want them to have the opportunity to challenge. I also want the minor -- the victim -- to have an opportunity to have her day in court if so warranted. Yes. Absolutely. To the issue of balance, one can argue that for 50 years after the 1953 Short Creek, AZ raid, the “balance” was weighted steeply against minors and in favor of polygamists. (Again, it’s not an issue of normatives; polygamy, child abuse, and statutory rape are illegal.) The last few years represents regaining “balance” w/r/t polygamy, child abuse, and statutory rape by members of this sect. The heroes are the Texas Rangers, the County Sheriffs, and the Texas Child Protective Service. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

What would your recommended course of action have been? /Marg Maybe take the girl who called into custody and start an INVESTIGATION? Now I'm really confused ... What do you think the search warrants were part of? The San Angelo local & county Texas law enforcement, working with federal law enforcement, were doing what you describe -- what you recommend. They acted on probable cause, obtained warrants though the process of law, there was some unspecified communication between law enforcement & members of the sect before they arrived at the compound, and they executed the warrants to obtain evidence as part of an investigation. They actually did what you said. When they attempted to locate the known minor as part of the ongoing investigation, she could not/cannot be found. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

What would your recommended course of action have been? /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying