nerdgirl

I agree that there is a need within civilization for common codes of ethical behavior. Norms can be incredibly powerful! It's argued that norms against the use of chemical weapons kept them from being used in WWII because they were seen as so abhorrent to civilized world after use in WWI. While many people do derive ethical and moral codes of behavior from religious principles, one can also derive ethical & moral codes of behavior from the rule of law, from Enlightenment principles of personal liberty and personal responsibility and/or from any number of a-religious philosophical approaches, e.g., from Aristotle to Descartes to Ayn Rand to Existentialism (authenticity & Da Sein) to Heinlein to Star Trek (the 'prime directive'). There is no requirement for belief in a monotheistic deity or pantheistic deity system in order to behave morally. As has been witnessed throughout history belief in a mono-theistic deity or pan-theistic deity system does not preclude humans from acting a-morally or immorally. As Kurt Vonnegut succinctly described: “being a Humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead. Humanism is a progressive lifestance that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.” Im-ever-ho, that’s the ultimate in personal responsibility: behavior because it’s normatively right, without motivation or expectation of material or immaterial compensation. How do you get it: existing in ta state of security of personhood and meeting basic needs (lack of security, a la Somalia, breeds anarchy; anarchy breeds very un-moral behavior), role models (parents and others), liberal education (not in the political sense, in the Age of Enlightement sense). VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

I heartily agree with your second sentence; the implication/conclusion/explanation is where I suspect we diverge. There are lots of assumptions tied up/entangled in those two sentences. 6000 years ago, in ancient Mesopotamia, long before Judaism or Christianity had been invented, you would agree that the planet was (basically) a sphere, yes? It wasn’t flat or a boat riding on the back of turtle, right? Gravity still worked, right? The planet revolved around a small, M-class yellow star that the Sumerians called “Utu” (for their sun god), yes? (I'm confident that you get where this going.) Their demons were uncontrollable forces of weather: “Lil” and “Lilitu” for the desert wind, which eventually became the Judaic “Lilith”, to be re-invented another 4000 years later as a pop-feminist icon. Things that we *know* today (roughly spherical rocky planet, gravity, sun-centered solar system, wind due to changes in atmospheric pressure) that defied explanation by the human mind 6000 years ago weren’t the result of supernatural beings disappearing to be replaced by physical phenomena. Because a physical phenomenon cannot be explained through our human-developed instrumentation and the limits of our human brain, does not necessitate a supernatural explanation. Like the ancient Sumerians and all of humanity up through the Scientific Revolution, the unanswered explanations for physical phenomena might just need better instrumentation, faster computational capabilities, and more memory. Having a scientific mindset or approach to understanding physical phenomena doesn't preclude practice of irrational hope, love, passion, joy, anger, nor does it eliminate appreciation of unscientific pursuits like art, dance, or jumping out of high-flying, fast-moving objects.

Analysis based on the US Army documents I mentioned showed trends among those receiving waivers (which would include all felons) between 2003 and 2006. Soldiers receiving waivers showed a wider spread along the spectrum: “These soldiers tended to have better performance in basic training, re-enlist at a higher rate, are promoted to the rank of sergeant more quickly and receive more medals for valor than those without waivers.” But at the same time “Waiver recruits are more likely than non-waiver recruits to be drummed out of the Army due to misconduct, desertion and failure to complete alcohol rehabilitation.” The analysis was discussed more fully on last Thursday’s “Morning Edition” on NPR. There are (at least) two policy issues that may have some overlapping areas of concern and some that run contrary: is it to "society's" overall benefit to view military service as a rehabilitory option for young men and women? Are the services obligated to accept such enlistees? Do the services benefit from such an enlistee (perhaps, they are more committed because the alternative option, i.e., jail, is worse) ? Is it to the uniformed services benefit to increase the number of waivers granted? Does the extra expenditure due to those who fall to the far left hand of the spectrum (which is a larger percentage of the 'waiver recuits') justify the need for more enlistees? Related: what's the USN & the USAF doing 'right' that they don't need to use the waiver option? And where in the whole discussion is the other end of the spectrum -- attracting the 'best & brightest' and holding onto them? Rather than lowering the lteral and metaphorical bar, why is that even necessary? (Okay, I admit the last part has some easy flippant answers, i.e., we're engaged in overseas conflicts, but it also has larger issues w/less easy answers.) VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

What if science could show that 'free will' was illusory? VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

“Thoughts?” Lot of them, as usual.

Me too. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

I wonder if that specific policy is gang-related? -- US Army Criminal Investigation Command’s FY 2006 Gang Activity Threat Assessment -- US Army 1ID Assessment of "Criminal Street Gangs in the Military" -- Stars and Stripes investigatory article on "Gangs in the Military" VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Yes, children do have Constitutional protections - right to personhood; right to existence free from sexual, physical, or extreme mental abuse; and right to not be forced into marriage as a minor, to not be forced to have sex as a minor, etc. In this case, the State laws are also at play or more prominent, where the explicit prohibitions to abridgement of those rights are delineated. If there is probable cause, i.e., based on material seized during execution of the search warrant or based on observations during execution of the search warrant, then the children (or adults) may be compelled to give DNA evidence. The State is arguing that they are acting in the interest of the children, rather than attempting to use DNA evidence against them, which would be the case for some of the adults. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Hasn't that been one of the rationales behind increasing gas taxes? VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Nominee for quote of the day (bolded portion below, rest included for context & relation to post): “At the heart of the identity problem are the group's commitment to ‘celestial marriage’ — polygamy — and its custom of allowing first cousins to marry. ‘Your family tree shouldn't be a wreath,’ says Randy Mankin, editor of the El Dorado [Texas] Success newspaper, which unearthed the sect’s Utah roots four years ago, when its first members, posing as businessmen, arrived in Eldorado under the pretense of building a hunting and game preserve." From an article in the 20 April 08 issue of Time magazine, “Tracing the Polygamists' Family Tree” that discusses the incidence of fumarase deficiency in the Arizona FLDS,the Utah FLDS communities, and speculation of incidence in the children of the west Texas FLDS community and the FLDS approach the public subsidies: “Families whose children are affected often avail themselves of state-funded medical care, consistent with the FLDS philosophy of seeking government aid — despite their suspicion of government — which they call ‘bleeding the Beast.’” “The FLDS community, by and large, rejects the idea that Fumarase Deficiency is caused by genes, according to [Dr.] Tarby [the neurological pediatrician who first identified the birth defect in the Arizona FLDS community –nerdgirl]. ‘They have their mythology about the condition. They think it’s something in the water, or something in the air,’ he says.” VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

As to this one I would speculate a part of the reason is that caring about something is regarded as a weakness, a la those who taunt merely to ‘get a rise’ out of another, or being genuinely serious is regarded as uncool. I’ve wondered about that one a few times, in a slightly different form: the shift to a “punk’d” culture. Humans have been making fun of, ridiculing, & bullying each other as far as written history goes back. Shakespeare was a master of acerbic wit. When did being a ‘jerk’ become something at which to excel & the ‘cool’ thing to do? VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

My understanding is that the DNA testing is to try to identify close(st) siblings to keep them together and as further evidence of polygamous practice and sex with minors. It’s unclear whether the children are intentionally being deceptive or genuinely don’t know who their biological mother is – “they’ve been trained to evade questions about relationships and use ‘mother’ to address all their father's wives.” Texas Law, sponsored by Rep. Harvey Hilderbran (R-Kerrville), was changed in 2004 to make polygamy a felony (rather than a misdemeanor) and to increase the legal age of marriage for girls to 16: “In cases where teenage girls have babies, authorities will look closely at how old they were when they conceived and at the father’s age. And because polygamous sects do not file marriage certificates of second and third wives, the law also allows prosecutors to charge people with polygamy in situations where there is an appearance of the crime, such as multiple wives living under one roof.” “The bill’s final version also made it illegal for children to marry their stepparents. It also provided for the prosecution of parents who allowed children younger than 16 to get married.” Other parts of the 2004 Texas law: provide for felony prosecution of parents who allow children younger than 16 to marry; allows for prosecution of people who perform wedding ceremonies for people younger than 16; prohibits people from being in a common-law marriage if they are already married; makes having sex with first cousins a second-degree felony, while other forms of incest may be considered third-degree felonies; voids marriages in which one of the parties is underage, meaning that sexual acts committed during those marriages can be considered felonies. Taken in conjunction with documents, "Bishop's records," from the search of the FLDS compound, I suspect Texas prosecutors will be trying to show violations of those State laws. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

The paper cited was from 1992, so likely to be using RFLP and Southern blotting. Using the standard methodology today which examines at sections of DNA (loci) that show large amount of variability across the human genome, it should not be a problem. If there is a need to go to either additional number of short tandem repeats (STR), focusing on the sex chromosomes, that can be done. Or Amplified Fragment Length Polymorphism (AFLP)-based genetic screening as a secondary, confirming test should be do-able as well. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

If that is true, which from that news report sounds possible, that is horrid. And the 33-year old woman arrested should be charged to the full extent of the law. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Would you expand on your criticisms? I haven't had a chance to read the NDU Occasional Paper yet, so am interested in what you see as problematic in Collins' analysis? Is it just recycyling of other documents and findings or something else? Thanks. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Clarification: You assert that you as a late 20-something to 40-something independent adult male acting with malicious forethought to falsely make claims compelling the removal of someone’s child because of your unresolved grudge … is equivalent to … the State initiating an investigation of multiple complaints by a 16-year old pregnant girl with an infant in a tightly controlled gated-compound in which independent information has been given by another (former) FLDS member? You *really* think those two situations are analogous? I do agree with you on one thing here: “specious” is not the most precise word to describe your analogy. Is your argument essentially that the metaphorical bar for evidence needs to be higher in cases in which women or girls make accusations of sexual misconduct, including sexual misconduct against minors? VR/ Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

What law specifically was violated? I agree that there does not seem to be any indication of mass suicide. The State, however, did find compelling evidence during execution of the original search warrants of physical and sexual abuse of minors or that were in imminent danger of such abuse to order removal. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

I’m not familiar/haven't run across the case you cite. Do you know its name? In short, no. A SCOTUS ruling from 1878 holds that the First Amendment does not protect the practice polygamy. In 1878, in Reynolds v. United States, the US Supreme Court addressed whether the federal law that prohibited polygamy in the territories was constitutional under the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the US Constitution. The case was brought by a bigamous Mormon man (this was before the larger LDS church, which no longer condones polygamy, changed its standard, and before the FLDS broke away from the LDS) who claimed that his religious beliefs mandated polygamy (this is the same argument that the FLDS makes today) and therefore the law was in violation of his right to the free exercise of his beliefs. The SCOTUS soundly rejected the polygamist's challenge (8-1); the lone dissenting Justice wrote not on the Free Exercise argument, but against introduction of testimony made by the 2nd wife that was contested. In the SCOTUS opinion, delivered by the Chief Justice, it was determined: “The inquiry is not as to the power of Congress to prescribe criminal laws for the Territories, but as to the guilt of one who knowingly violates a law which has been properly enacted, if he entertains a religious belief that the law is wrong. “Congress cannot pass a law for the government of the Territories which shall prohibit the free exercise of religion. The first amendment to the Constitution expressly forbids such legislation. Religious freedom is guaranteed everywhere throughout the United States, so far as congressional interference is concerned. The question to be determined is, whether the law now under consideration comes within this prohibition. “Suppose one believed that human sacrifices were a necessary part of religious worship, would it be seriously contended that the civil government under which he lived could not interfere to prevent a sacrifice? Or if a wife religiously believed it was her duty to burn herself upon the funeral pile of her dead husband, would it be beyond the power of the civil government to prevent her carrying her belief into practice? “So here, as a law of the organization of society under the exclusive dominion of the United States, it is provided that plural marriages shall not be allowed. Can a man excuse his practices to the contrary because of his religious belief? To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself. Government could exist only in name under such circumstances.” The most recent case (as far as I can tell) in which the SCOTUS reaffirmed the principles of Reynolds v. United States was in the 1990 case Employment Division v. Smith. The SCOTUS found that the claim of two individual that their religious belief compelled them to use peyote did not prevent the State of Orgegon from denying them unemployment benefits on the grounds that they had engaged in illegal drug use, just as it would any other drug law violator. Literally (not figuratively) hundreds of cases, at the Supreme Court and Circuit Courts, have re-affirmed and/or cited Reynolds v. U.S.. Additionally, polygamy is explicitly prohibited by the State Constitution of both Utah and Arizona. Texas law prohibits polygamy and the marriage of girls under 16. Btw: the secular pro-polygamy community (never knew there was an organized one) that emphasizes *consenting adults* has criticized the FLDS, e.g., here & here. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

How many phone calls does it take? And what if she does identify herself but her name is being withheld from press reports? How many phone calls? Well, I would say no phone call is justification to take someone's kids, especially an anonymous call. Again, the phone calls and prior information initiated the investigation, which may have been a requirement of Texas law when a minor makes a claim of sexual &/or physical abuse. If so, your issue should be with the law, not the claimant or the Texas law enforcement. The investigatory process included (but I'm highly doubtful was limited to) obtaining search warrants. Upon executing the search of the FLDS compound as part of the investigation, it has been reported that additional evidence of neglect, sexual, &/or physical abuse was obtained that prompted the removal of the children. One of the arrests thus far has been of an FLDS individual charged w/"tampering of evidence." The problem is what you are describing is a specious analogy. Period. Where do you see *specifically* due process has been violated? VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

I like this policy. Ensure individual and group freedoms while exercising due process of law. It sounds very good in electrons. It also sounds pretty much like what the Texas Rangers, sheriffs, and CPS in west Texas did (!) VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Thanks. I appreciate the well-thought out criticisms/challenges. That's an incredibly intellectually provocative statement! Counter-utilitarian. How does the State or Provincial govt go about doing that? I do think it's a good point to start a discussion. The 'Devil's Advocate' in me starts posing all sorts of questions, e.g., how does one identify those children? (A Gattaca-esque DNA screening upon entry into primary school?) Policy & ethical questions applied to the most upstanding, responsible, law-abiding, groups (& the ones w/which one agrees or sympathizes philosophically) are easy. The more I read and the more I learn about the group, its practices, their behavior, and the consequences, the more apt the ‘American-style Taliban’ analogy is. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Clarification: You're claiming that healthcare is a "God given and constitutionally guaranteed right" but investigating allegations of child abuse, acting on probable cause to remove children from abusive or neglectful situations is wrong? By analogy, are you really saying that a parent has the right to break a child's arm & the state is required to pay for medical care to set the bone? That's what it sounds like you're asserting? I don't get it. Please explain it to me so that I can understand you logic and rationale. Huh? What room? /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

How many phone calls does it take? And what if she does identify herself but her name is being withheld from press reports? From Salt Lake City Tribune story "Key players involved in the Texas FLDS case": "A 16-year-old girl, according to officials, told a family violence shelter in multiple calls on March 29 and 30 that her polygamous husband was physically and sexually abusing her at the YFZ Ranch, once breaking her ribs. She said she has a baby and is pregnant." As well as information obtained by "Schleicker County Sheriff [Texas] David Doran, "who has developed a working relationship with leaders at YFZ Ranch while also receiving information from a confidential informant who is an ex-member of the sect." Asserting that the investigation was initiated based on "1 anonymous phone call" is less than factually correct based on what has been reported widely and publically (& cited multiple times w/in this thread). It wasn't one call & it wasn't anonymous. And it wasn't the only information on which the investigation began. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Excellent point. Should the perpetrators' behavior (illegal, immoral, stupid, or whatever) be tacitly encouraged/supported through such policies? Or does the state's interest in protection of the victims in this case supersede that of the state's interest in enforcing legal statutes? Or supersede the state's interest in punishing illegal behavior? Is a 'better' policy possible that does not punish (even exogenously) the victims of crime in this situation or in general? And how does one craft and implement such a policy? VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

W/r/t folks who've responded to this thread so far, perhaps yes. In general, no, you're not. It's a lively mix. In just the last year, there have been many discussions on the board in which some folks have opposed SCHIP (and this one & this one), vehement opposition to increased govt involvement in healthcare, criticism of the current system, and some have argued strongly for privatization of all healthcare. We've had engaging, detailed discussions on interpretation of the Constitution as it relates to "general welfare" including healthcare (& another), (& that's not just becuase I participate in them, altho' that does help me remember them. --[at myself]). If you are opposed on any (reasonable) grounds to socialized medicine or universal healthcare than it's really not an ethical conundrum; for those who either support it whole-heartedly or to some limited extent, than it may be. For some it doesn't matter & children should not be punished for the behavior (illegal, immoral, stupid, or otherwise) of their parents and assert that society benefits in the long run from healthy, educated, & non-sexually abused, molested, or neglected children regardless. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying