Muffie

So, after reading a lot in the incidents forum this is what I've come up with in terms of tracking lessons. Please feel free to chime in and correct anything I say that you disagree with or to add any other tracking rules: 1. Track as if your life depends on it, but not for so long or so far that you can run into another group from the same load. 2. Try not to track along the line of flight if there's another group in the direction you are going to track. Up to a 4-way this can be pretty easy (45 degrees from line of flight with a 90 degree angle between each jumper in the group). Beyond that, it gets less likely. 3. Have an idea what the groups before you and after you in the plane are going to do and plan your exit separation accordingly. So, if two 4-ways are jumping back to back maybe leave a little extra separation as opposed to a 4-way and a 2-way. Thoughts?

I don't think so. The replies seem in line with what women I know would answer. In high school and college I usually knew at least one girl who by my age now (I'm mid-30's) would fall into the 100+ category, but the majority would be under 50 and probably under 25.

Glad you did! That little mini drama has been jacking threads left and right and I personally am far more interested in responses to my actual question.

At least the birthday gives you a good chance to show you like her and if she's still talking to you by then then you still have a chance with her. (Hell, even if she's not it gives you a chance to salvage things) My advice: 1. Try to avoid any future comments that point out the age difference or imply that she's old. As in, "that show was from before my time, but I bet you remember it..." 2. For her birthday try to make some gesture that shows you get her. Doesn't even have to be a gift if you're too new for that. Even just a happy birthday and hope you got that whatever it is that she mentioned she wanted or was interested in or was looking forward to. Really, remembering her bday unless she drops shameless hints all the time is a big plus sign. Remember, you're up against guys who think that "nice pics" is an appropriate intro e-mail on dating sites. Or who put up title lines like "likes dogs and little girls." (Both true examples, sadly). If you've already proven yourself as someone she can communicate with you're on the right track. The worst thing you can do is stop trying, so hang in there.

I figured it was possible that the term is evolving, so took a look at urban dictionary (such an authoritative source, I know). Of the top 25 entries for MILF, three match the generic woman old enough to have kids version of the term and 23 still refer to a mother or mom specifically with a few saying of any age but generally a mother of a teenage boy. So, looks like the term is changing to be more generic, but it's not there yet. The things I do with my day...

If what was meant by the speaker is complimentary, like "MILF", i.e., a middle-aged woman who is so hot looking that young men & teen boys find her attractive, then it's not an insult. BTW, a MILF is a "mother I'd like to f&^!" so not based on age, but the fact that she's had at least one kid and is still really hot.

Another good point. I had one day where I only did two AFF jumps because I just wasn't getting turns and was getting frustrated and needed to stop for the day. I talked to my AFFI the next day and the day after that was able to work it out on the first jump. Don't force yourself if you're not feeling it. And don't get too upset if you fail a level. I went into it thinking everyone passes each level on their first try and it turns out that's not true. Knowing that in advance would have taken off some of that pressure I was putting on myself.

I think there's a gray area where someone can pass away who was heavily involved in the sport but not technically a skydiver and it would be justified to post there. Skybill's post about his wife who did one tandem (so maybe not the best example) but was actively at the dropzone seemed appropriate for that forum, IMO. A famous person who someone associates with their skydiving experience, more appropriate for Bonfire, IMO. So, maybe a better example would be a dz pilot who had never jumped. I think a post for that person, esp. if they died while flying jumpers, is appropriate.

Also depends on her age and how hip she is to the terms. Puma - woman in her 30's who dates much younger Cougar - woman in her 40's who dates much younger Jaguar - woman in her 50's who dates much younger So, if she's in her 30's you may have really insulted her. If she's in her 50's maybe it was a backhanded compliment.

Here's a link to the downsizing chart. Try to get him to read it? http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

I've heard of people who did eight or nine in a day, but I think that would've been way too much for me. The most I did was three in a day and I felt it in my arms from steering the canopy. From what I was told the sooner you get them all done the better. Helps you lock in that knowledge.

I found confirmation that Lee was 2nd in his class on the West Point website. They don't mention where MacArthur was in his own graduating class. Maybe it has something to do with # of demerits since Lee had none? http://www.usma.edu/PublicAffairs/Press_Kit_files/SelectedNoteworthyGrads.htm

Yeah, I should've included Money/Economy, Burnout, Boredom, and Skydiving Drama (e.g., dz politics, the newer generation, increased risk someone else was going to take you out, etc.) Hindsight. Seems I was biased by too much time spent reading the Incidents forums.

Awesome, thanks!

I believe if you aren't currently jumping you shouldn't be on this site because after time you will forget things and give outdated advice I don't know if I agree with not being on this site. Dropzone.com is still a community of people who love skydiving and I've seen some very active posters who don't try to give advice but are very much a part of this community. I've seen at least one other person comment in the Incidents thread on her own accident that made her realize it was time to quit the sport and I thought it was a very valuable post. And some folks may not be jumping anymore but they've forgotten more about this sport than I'll probably ever know and I count on the other guys with tons of experience to jump right in there and comment that times have changed if needed.

So, I noticed that a decent number of posters on here have mentioned that they no longer jump or that they took an extended break from the sport and since I've run out of current posts to read (you'd think that wouldn't be possible) thought I'd start a poll to see what people's reasons for no longer jumping were. (Better than trying to wade through the Speaker's Corner.)

I've been doing some tunnel time while I'm in Colorado. I do 15 minutes each time I go, generally 2.5 minutes at a pop, alternating with whoever else is in that 30 minute block of time. Before going I spoke to a buddy of a buddy who was a tunnel coach and he had recommended 10 minutes to start off, but when I spoke to my coach we ended up going with 15. Depending on what you're working on, different types of flying can be more exhausting. So far, I'd say sitflying took the most out of me (I'd done belly and back before that). If you can set things up with a coach that someone can recommend, I would do that as well.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-10-18-teens-sex_x.htm An old article, but one worth reading if you're a parent of a teen or pre-teen girl to understand how things have changed. "Among teens, oral sex is often viewed so casually that it needn't even occur within the confines of a relationship. Some teens say it can take place at parties, possibly with multiple partners..."

Nik, I'm newer to the sport - did my first tandem last November and then did AFF this fall. At this point I have 28 jumps and can say that doing your own jumps is a hell of a lot more fun than a tandem. Having said that - if you read through these forums you will soon see that most people who are at it any length of time know someone who is hurt seriously or killed and that if you don't know a person killed chances are you'll know someone who did know them. (And Blue Skies isn't just skydiving fatalities - it's people who were close to the sport or in the sport who have passed away, some from skydiving, some from other things). For example, you're in NZ and on the South Island - chances are everyone you jumped with knew someone on that Fox Glacier crash earlier this year. Since doing my AFF and a handful of jumps I've been reading the incidents forum. It's an eye opener about what can and has gone wrong, but if you really have skydiving in your blood I would advise against doing that now. Go, do your AFF, get some jumps under your belt and then freak yourself out after you have some real world experience of a solo jump. If you focus too much on what can go wrong before you learn how things work I think you may end up doing yourself a disservice. Your instructors will drill you on what you need to know for those first few jumps, including handling malfunctions and off landings, etc. Welcome! Muffie

After a PM discussion, I just want to clarify one of the items on my list. 9. “I have the right to do whatever I want to do because I paid for the jump ticket.” I wasn't saying that experienced skydivers can't do what they know how to do and know how to do well. This was a context-specific statement about what people say in the incidents forum. There were a couple of threads where a landing pattern had been established (I believe one of the patterns was follow the first one down) and someone had died or been seriously injured because someone failed to follow the pattern. There was lots of good discussion about whether following the first person to land down is a good policy and about how you can land off if you don't want to follow that person's pattern. But there were also comments about how someone was not going to land off and was going to land in their chosen direction because they were looking out for #1. Since that's been the cause of some fatalities and injuries in the past two years it was frustrating to see that statement pop up each time. Also, the exiting the aircraft one was related to a specific incident where after lots of good discussion about the need to exit differently from a plane with a low tail someone had chimed in with the equivalent of "I'll exit any way I please because I paid for that right." The incident itself was related to someone with low jump numbers who probably didn't know better, but that comment after lots of discussion of the dangers of jumping up when exiting a low tailed aircraft was annoying to me. It's just personally frustrating for me to see someone lose their life or be seriously injured and see someone else comment on how they're not going to take that lesson to heart. I now realize that there is a lot of history on some of these issues and people probably reacted through the lens of their own experiences in ways that I hadn't anticipated and that those people thought I was making a much broader statement about their actions than I was. I still stand by my belief that we each have an obligation to each other, the drop zone we jump at, and the sport.

Mik-I can't find anything right now. When I was first looking at dz.com back in September my recollection is that there was an incident listed as a suicide for a 16 year-old jumper on his second jump that hadn't pulled that was in Russia. I can't find it now so perhaps I've recalled something incorrectly in those facts. I know it was listed as suicide at the time because that's what prompted me to chat with my JM about it. Later, reading through incidents I'm pretty sure I came across a discussion of the incident where it was mentioned that the kid had some depression issues so suicide wasn't entirely unexpected. I tried some key word searches and can't find that thread either, but will keep trying or maybe this rings a bell for someone else who is better at searching on this site. Edited to add: Think I found the fatality report. It wsa the UK, not Russia. Sorry, not sure why I stored Russia in my brain. 16 year old. 2 jumps. No pull. Listed as suicide on July 12, 2010.

Riggerrob - I assume you're referring to this comment "Not saying that’s right, just saying that it’s easy after years in this sport to think that everyone should know when they start what you know after years of experience." Basically, I meant that I'm not trying to defend the fact that as a new jumper there are lots of things that I and others like me should probably know. But, that the amount of information you absorb after years in this sport can seem so fundamental after a while that it's hard to remember that it wasn't that way when you started and that we newer jumpers don't know everything we should know. For me, reading the incidents forums it made me realize what I hadn't considered in terms of the plane I was flying in and the role of jumpers and the pilot at various points of flight. Also, there was a discussion of rotors that was much more detailed than I had learned yet because I jump somewhere that has few buildings and obstacles. Also, there's the "who on earth wouldn't know that they need to pull" comments. My first tandem AFF jump I lost altitude awareness. I did my practice touches and then I looked around because it was a gorgeous day and suddenly we were at 6,000 feet and I was supposed to have locked on at 7,000 feet and pulled at 6,000 feet. My JM pulled and I redid the jump. I like to think I would've pulled long before the ground, but knowing that you need to pull and doing so at the right time and altitude are different. My first jump with my own rig, I kept moving when I reached for the hackey and missed it. I KNEW I needed to pull, but that didn't make me move any less. And it certainly didn't make me automatically think - right, now go to EPs because I can't find that hackey. Fortunately, I was doing AFF and had someone there to pull for me so I could make it to the ground and learn that lesson. Not moments I'm proud of and if I'd been jumping solo I very well could have gone in on the second one if I hadn't gotten my head out of my ass. So, for me, having made that mistake, I can see how someone doesn't "know" the most basic thing they should. And I can assure you that after that first jump I stay very altitude aware and after that second jump I make sure I know where my hackey is long before pull time. But, maybe the only difference between me and that 16-year-old Russian kid who went in with no pull on his second jump may just be that I had someone next to me in freefall and he didn't. Who knows?

Andy - too true! Definitely picked that one up from reading these forums. Well, glad to hear people liked it (and that if anyone was miffed they spared me the attacks). Also, glad to see some further insight into some of the items via posts and PM. Obviously, some of these are context specific. So, for example, the "no more to learn" is annoying when it's post three or four, but legit when it's on page 5 after things have devolved into chaos. Peek-I'm such a newbie I really have nothing to put in my profile yet! No license, no gear of my own, no interests other than skydiving. (At least no one decided that made me a troll, a lawyer, or a reporter...). Wendy P - also a good one! Popsjumper - I wondered about that, too - taking speculation elsewhere to get away from the feelings involved in the incident but to still encourage discussion. Maybe next time something happens (which will hopefully be a while) we can try something like, "I've started a thread on the possible causes of hard openings in the safety forum - here's the link if people want to discuss." It may help everyone learn from an incident without anyone thinking it's a personal discussion of the jumper, the rigger, the DZO, etc. Or maybe that just splits the discussion up too much? May be worth a try... Well, hope a bunch of you are jumping this weekend. I envy you!

I’m not jumping right now so have read about two years of the incidents forum in the last month to see what I could learn and I’ve learned a ton as a result, but it’s been a sometimes painful process. So, after reading my umpteenth “nothing to learn” here comment, I finally decided to put together this little list and my reason for being annoyed. Not meant to offend anyone, but if it does, apologies in advance. Top Ten Phrases from the Incidents Forum that Annoy Me: 1. “Nothing new to learn” This may be true for the poster, but generally isn’t true for everyone reading the incidents forum. For some of us, this is the first low hook turn fatality we’ve read about, so let us learn even if you aren’t. Also, generally there are some unique factors in each situation that warrant some discussion. 2. “Don’t speculate. Someone who knows the facts will come on here and tell them when the time is right.” First, I’ve learned more from the random speculation on the incidents forum than I ever would have learned from some dry recital of the facts of each incident. Through speculation I learn about three or four things that can go wrong rather than the one thing that may have actually happened. Second, this hardly ever happens (kudos to those who do try to post as complete an account as possible, but generally it doesn’t happen). Third, from what I’ve seen it’s rare that anyone ever truly knows exactly what happened even with video and first-hand accounts. 3. “I would never…” or “No one would ever…” If you read enough of the incidents and you stay at this long enough it seems that anything is possible. Never forget your parachute? It’s been done. Never misroute your chest strap? Seems to happen a lot. And making an absolute statement like this doesn’t further the conversation, it just invites lots of people telling you you’re wrong. 4. “That was negligent” or “That was criminal.” I’m no lawyer, but it seems to me that these are very loaded terms with very particular meanings and legal definitions. And in two years of incidents I have yet to see one that was so well-document, undisputed, and clear that an allegation like this can be made without it being inflammatory or debatable. It doesn’t further the learning experience and just creates bad blood. 5. “Every skydiver (even a brand new AFF or SL student) should know or should be able to…” Not true. I’ve seen a lot of these. Like “every skydiver should know everything about the plane they’re jumping out of.” Sorry, but I was a little more concerned on my first few jumps about having the right gear, exiting ok, getting a good body position, practice touches, altitude, the frickin’ wind in my face, pulling, finding the landing zone, approach altitudes, steering my canopy, landing into the wind, flaring, etc., etc., etc. No one is born doing this and not everyone learns everything there is to know about a sport before they enter it. I drive a car every day, but don’t ask me how the engine works. It just does. Not saying that’s right, just saying that it’s easy after years in this sport to think that everyone should know when they start what you know after years of experience. 6. “He was the safest,” “the most experienced,” the most “heads up” guy…usually followed by some sort of statement that proves that no, he was not. “He was the most conservative swooper I knew. He didn’t move to a Katana 120 until he had 300 jumps and he didn’t start doing 180s until well over 500 jumps.” I can appreciate that it’s tough when someone you know or respect or care about is the subject of an incident thread and when people are calling him an idiot or questioning his ability, but it undermines everything you’re trying to say about the guy when you say something so absolute like that about someone who just had something go seriously wrong. By all means, contribute your personal knowledge, but just do it without the absolutes. For example, “I’ve seen him do approximately 100 180s and in those 100 jumps I never saw him have to dig himself out of the corner” and then try to help us understand why this time may have been different. Like, “Well, he did just downsize, maybe that changed things.” 7. “We can’t change this. It’s the way it is. It’s too hard. Too much effort. This is the last bastion of freedom and I won’t let you take that away from me.” Why shut down legitimate discussion about how to make the majority of our lives a little safer while doing something that is inherently fatal before you mitigate the risk? Maybe nothing comes of it in the end, but a kneejerk refusal to consider better ways of doing things benefits no one. And too much of this thinking may one day lead to someone outside this sport telling you exactly how to fix your “problems” even though they don’t have a clue about how it all works and then you really will have lost that freedom. 8. “I know how to break the chain of events – never skydive in the first place.” We’re all involved in these discussions and reading them because we want to skydive and we want to hopefully find a way to learn from the mistakes of others before we do something that kills or breaks us. So, if you know this is a b.s. argument that doesn’t further the conversation then why make it? 9. “I have the right to do whatever I want to do because I paid for the jump ticket.” No, you don’t. You don’t have the right to endanger the entire load by exiting the plane in such a way that you could take out the tail and kill everyone on board. You don’t have the right to land in a crowded landing area against the agreed pattern because you want to. You have chosen to be part of a community and by jumping at a drop zone with other jumpers you have to some degree accepted responsibility for their safety as much as yours. By acting without regard to anyone else you jeopardize yourself, others, the continuing operation of that drop zone, and the entire sport as it currently exists. If you want to do crazy shit and try to kill yourself, find some guy with a plane, go to the middle of nowhere and jump out of a plane all by yourself. But if you choose to jump at a drop zone you have a responsibility to the others that are jumping with you. We all do. 10. Bringing personal gripes, innuendo, old hatreds into the discussion. Unless something is a proven fact and is directly relevant to the discussion of the incident, leave the drama out of it. It just riles people up and derails the discussion. If you want to gripe about someone, start a thread somewhere else about how “Joe Smith is at it again,” but don’t ruin the learning opportunity for everyone else by turning it into a mudslinging fest. Just my .02 as a n00b who's trying to learn and doesn't have any skin in the game yet.

>I think it's part luck, part hard work, part upbringing. You can do well with any one of those, but for most people, I think it takes a combination of all three. I agree with Bill. I'm very fortunate to be where I am, but it's because my father raised me to work my ass off and I've done so for the last fifteen years to get to where I am. I was also lucky to be given the opportunities I was and to have people in my life who helped move me forward rather than holding me back. And I'm fine with paying more in taxes because when I was younger my dad was disabled and we benefited from the safety net that exists in this country when things go wrong. Having said that, I think someone who somehow feels entitled to be supported by others because those others have somehow "lucked" into success and they just can't get a break is full of it. Atlas Shrugged is a long, but good read of what can happen when that idea is taken to its extreme. And as for the idea that the poor in this country are better off than a 100 years ago. Absolutely. The poverty line in the U.S. is relative and based on the CPI so people are still below the poverty line and always will be, but the number of people in that category with shoes, roofs over their heads, running water, and food to eat is higher than it used to be. Problem is that it probably feels a lot worse to be poor these days because it's so easy to compare yourself to everyone else.