PiLFy

OK, I think I hear your points. I trained from Day One w/an Alti. I can't imagine jumping w/o one. I wonder how much of this is generational? I'm seeing a parallel between this, & academic dishonesty by some of today's Twenty_somethings. I came of age using technology (as it developed) to make things safer than yesteryear. You started jumping long before me in another era. Simply put, I view technology differently than you do. It's something worth considering as a part of this. The Audible use @the Aussie DZ is two-fold. The first use, is as a hard deck indicator. Do you agree w/that use? It's essentially an extension of the AAD @that point. A student would only hear it if they'd already screwed up & were in immediate danger. The extra thousand feet or so they'd give that student could make the difference. The canopy alarms seem like a more effective way to convey the same data to me. H*ll, I understand the Pavlovian references. I'm known to drool myself, sometimes . How about setting the canopy alarms lower than the turn points? Or, only have one canopy alarm @about 200'. To make sure they're turned & on final approach by then? That would make it the same as the hard deck alarm. There are strong opinions on both sides of this. Both by credible sources like yourself, & less-so ones like little ole me. I think it's interesting to note that other DZs have been utilizing these tools for sometime, now. Bart's DZ isn't the first one. Where are all the horror stories from these new methods? Yes, I depend on my instruments to a large extent. I'll eventually get to judge alts like you can. That takes years, Jim. I see these tools as a safer way of making sure I (& students) will still be around to get there one day. Would I develop that skill faster w/o the instruments? Most likely, I would think so. I could also smash myself to bits on a couple of failed landing attempts. I too bemoan the general pussification seen in some areas of life. I don't think this is one of them. It may not be as macho as "An Alti?! Juss shaddup & jump, you coward!" It is a safer road to the same destination, though, IMHO. From previous replies to threads on this. Audibles have been in use for student training for years already. The Incident forum isn't full of proof arguing against their use. Whether they've contributed to negative aspects you guys see in newer jumpers is confounding. I think it's certain that as time goes by. More & more DZs will adopt their use. So long as students aren't taught to always rely on their instruments (I wasn't)? It's another approach to the same objective. P.S.: The BBQ is calling me. Gotta go .

Duly noted...

Sounds like good advice, Jim. Thank You. I know I depend on instruments. I also know I should have been working harder at alt recognition. One of my points in this thread, is that Mk1 calibration takes time. I still see them better than a five-jump, AFF, terror-in-their-eyes student does. I view the newer gizmos as a possible way to help better protect them while they learn.

Screw the naysayers, Shawn. I'm w/you. I want you to have a dream about a half-bald, middle-aged Newbie . Dream he wins a couple million dollars one day soon . In fact, have that dream for a couple of weeks straight. I'll let you know how it works out.

Guess you failed to read the whole thread... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_threaded;post=4178187;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC; I guess you conveniently forgot to see the time stamp on that post. Yeah, I saw it. It came very late in the conversation. It came after you'd attacked the OP repeatedly.

Hi Carsten, I remember, & like you from earlier posts. No offense taken. Hashing out ideas is one thing. Attacking them w/no substantive arguments is something altogether different. I'm aware Akers has been around a long time. He usually provides useful, if somewhat crass, contributions. He hasn't done that, here. When questioned on that, he still hasn't. He's just come back w/more insults. Let's leave that out of it, huh? How about you, my friend? using an Audible as a hard deck alarm is a bad thing? You approve of using AADs for students, right? Why not an Audible set to scream in their ear a thousand feet higher than AAD alt (& a couple thousand feet below their pull alt)? That would be a very unobtrusive way of improving their survival odds after a screw up, no? It takes a number of jumps to get (gradually) more aware of the combination of winds/traffic/hazards of the landing pattern puzzle, agreed? During that vulnerable 12 jump +/- period, would it not be better to have the students' heads on a swivel? It takes time & attention to discern

I have asked questions. You've failed repeatedly to answer them. You normally give good feedback on this board. I've respected you for that. You haven't done that here. I've found a few instructors w/poor 'tudes, Chuck. I avoid them. I choose to learn from the majority of instructors. I've found them to be open, friendly, & free w/their knowledge. This is what the OP asked: Have any other instructors out there been using digital altimeters and or audibles for AFF student? What was the motivation for using these devices? Has anyone had any negative out comes due to the use of this equipment? What are the positives that have been observed from the use of this equipment? He rightly put these questions up for discussion from the knowledge pool. What he got instead from some, including you, were attacks. If you're dead set against their use? OK, say so & be done w/it. Nothing positive will come from haranguing him (or me). His DZ isn't the only one to utilize audibles or digital Altis for students. The questions really weren't addressed to you in the first place.

Audible use for students in this thread, is in two parts. The hard deck, & the canopy alarms. Taken separately: Hard deck: If a student was supposed to pull @5,500', but is still in freefall @2,500". I'd say something is already seriously wrong, no? Would you pregfer they fumble/freeze/whatever until the AAD (hopefully. Barring a number of nasty scenarios) fires, & saves them? Or, would a pre-AAD emergency siren, cuing them to pull silver w/1,000'+ of extra alt., be better? If not, why? Pop the audible in there, & forget about it (from the student's viewpoint). If they ever hear it? Something is already very wrong. Why deny them more of a chance for survival? That is how they're being used @that DZ in Oz. They're essentially an extension of an AAD in that regard. Do you approve of that use for them? Canopy alarms: I think this is where most of the resistance is centered. Will some students blindly turn when they here the beep? I'm sure some will. Some will screw up no matter how long you drill proper techniques into them. This is for the majority of students. Analog Altis are imprecise

What I resorted to, was the truth. You read through all of that, & all you get out of it is "Babble?" Your reading comprehension skills need work. I think your objectivity does, as well. I'll tell you what, Chuckles. I'm thoroughly unimpressed w/your lack of refutation, & your demeanor towards me. I'm done w/you. Whatever you could have taught me. I'll learn from someone else w/o a 'tude. As you travel around the country. Should your Luck run out one day in an unknown city? As you look up, battered & broken, from your gurney. Don't be surprised if you see my face. You'll be in my world, then. Be more cognizant of how you treat others.

Yeah, I'm trying to do that, Jim (though not earnestly, I'll admit.). I already have lost an Alti once. I don't know how much longer it will take for my Mk1s to be ready for prime time. We're not there yet, though.

No sir, You are coming across as the joke here. Dismissing me due to jump #s w/o answering my questions. I can hear you imitating Cartman's "Respect my authotitayy!!" I see you finally commented in more depth to Bart further down the page. That's more than I can say for Andy. I'll have another look @what you said there...

More BS from Akers. What a surprise... Paul already knows I respect & seek his opinions. If what we've come to is more Newbies asking more questions? That's a good thing. It will ultimately help the sport grow. Intransigently holding onto past methodology will not.

Hi Jim, Sure, an audible can fail too. If I don't hear the initial beep @1K'. I'll disregard, & sort it out later. I don't know where I fall in relation to other Newbies being able to judge altitude. I don't feel comfortable that I can judge them accurately enough for safety, yet. Almost all of my jumps are w/up-jumpers w/a lot more experience. They come in to land @all different alts & headings. I don't have a lot of other visual cues to go on. At my level, I rely on instruments for at least starting the pattern. Try to remember what it was like before you had thousands of jumps. I can pretty much tell when I'm @1K'. However, much above that, & I'm on instruments.

Below is where our discussion ended in the other thread, Andy. You claimed I'd attributed thoughts & statements that weren't yours, to you. I refreshed your memory w/the below reply. I'm not regurgitating anything. I've repeatedly acknowledged that I'm a new jumper w/no ratings on this board. That's hardly putting myself out there as a know-it-all. What I've done, is respectfully put forth ideas for discussion. From a few crusty old-timers like yourself, I've gotten derision instead. Respect is something you earn. Attempting to negate my ideas, simply due to my jump numbers, isn't the way to go. Show me I'm wrong. Provide sound examples from your considerable experience. At Bart's DZ, they're trying this, & it's working out very well. The sky hasn't fallen. The multiple predicted problems haven't materialized. That speaks a lot louder to me than your dismissive rhetoric. If you can refute my ideas w/credible examples? I'm all ears. If derision & dodging the issue are all you've got? I'm going to finish writing you off. As you seem to love to say: So be it. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ Re: [popsjumper] AFF Level 7 - Cutaway - Argus fire [In reply to] Quote | Reply You attribute a couple ideas and statements to me that I didn't make. So be it. Well, geez, I didn't realize I was taking "cheap shots". In Reply To Dude, it took you 2500ft under a (albiet spiraling) canopy to locate and pull your handles? He was waiting for the beep. In Reply To To Pops note, c'mon now...you know better than to say I was waiting for that beep... Yes, it was tongue-in-cheek raggin' on audible use for students. ___________________________________________________ For example: "You think Germaine's article doesn't apply to students." The discussion here is about freefall. BG's article is about landing patterns - not applicable here. Two different animals. No, they're not. If a student's wrist Alti goes south. That audible might well be the difference between a safe landing, or an ambulance ride. ______________________________________________ But to be fair across the board, I'll re-think. Oh, BTW the article by BG is not relevant to student training, IMO. From Germaine's article: "Within this broad objective is the ability to fly a safe and consistent landing pattern. This is crucial for everyone, from the highest level of experience down to the beginner.//Altitude awareness is not something that ends once the canopy opens.//The time has come to utilize these tools for students and intermediate skydivers as well." Post AFF training maybe, Post A-license training for sure. Well, I'll be damned. Post-AFF is still student status. Post-A license is certainly under 100 jumps. The party line has long been "No audible until >100 jumps." Did the glass just crack? Did you cede these points intentionally? It's not your position on this that irks me, Andy. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. It's your tone that's sometimes right under the surface, & other times more overt. Your mind doesn't seem open to new tricks. You said to be fair, you'd rethink it. Most of your posts don't reflect that. You're firmly entrenched in the no-audibles-for-students camp? OK, as you said: "So be it." I don't want to argue w/you. I've explained my thoughts more in replies to others. Feel free to read them. You have a nice night too, sir. Kenny

...you want me to agree with you that putting audibles on students for canopy control is a good idea but putting radios on them is a bad one?? I never said that. Pulling the "I've been doing this sh*t for Twenty years" card is lame. You're still coming back w/obstinance, but no substance.

Hi Paul, Sorry, but not so fast, friend. Altis can fail in non-obvious ways, like mine did. My Alti that jump started sticking on the way down. It was OK on the ride to alt., BTW. Had it frozen in one position? I'd have known immediately that it had crapped out. It didn't. If I had had a second device available to me. I could have compared the two. An Audible is a backup, not a primary device. If I don't hear the beep @1K'? I know it isn't working. I'll disregard it, & go w/my primary Alti. I'm sorry, but your reasoning would disqualify the Galaxy I was wearing that day on the same grounds. The odds of a well-cared for Galaxy failing are slim. The odds of said Galaxy, plus an Optima failing, are remote... Which odds would you rather bet your life & limb on as a student?

OK, so the alti was "beat up" when you needed that as your justification for audibles, but when I point out that learning at a DZ that put you out on a "beat up" alti might not have been a good idea, it's now not so beat up? My friend, this is entertaining. Horribly scary when I think about it, but entertaining. Yes, I'm brilliant. That's why they put up with me. I hate to burst your bubble, Sunshine. Being obstinate isn't being a genius... So far, all you've been is stubborn. You haven't refuted any arguments. Now, you're twisting around what I've said. My training DZ is highly respected in the field. That's why I chose it. The Alti that failed had some miles on it, yes. What I was pointing out was that even a spiffy newer one can still fail. School Altis get abused. They're gonna fail from time to time. Having a backup Audible, especially for a vulnerable student, is only prudent. Your wanting to throw my training DZ under a bus because one Alti failed, is w/o merit. Students expending attention, & experiencing stress, worrying about whether their only data source for altitude will fail, is also a distraction. My experience w/radios is that you usually can't hear them under canopy. They were only useful for calling the flare. Even then, they can fail @the worst time...

Students have weak skills, Chuck. I went w/what I thought was solid data. An Alti can look unblemished N shiny, & still fail. You want to write off my training DZ because one of their Altis failed??? I was there Chuck, not you. Had I heard the thousand foot beep in my ear when my Alti said 2K'? I'd have known something was wrong.

In that scenario, using your altimeter is what got you into trouble in the first place. Altitude doesn't matter for the purposes of accuracy, glide angles do. ??? No Chuck, Using my beatup school Alti that hadn't obviously failed is what put me there. I was still a fledgling student @the time. Do you really think I could recognize glide angles @that level? I was going by my Alti. Had I heard contradicting beeps in my ear? I would have known something was wrong earlier, & aborted to a safer field.

No, he's teaching them a principle. One they can apply @any DZ. Not flying over any obstacles you don't want to land on @

I love this:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7X1O1fbkHAA/TlRl0kAh6EI/AAAAAAAACUg/sraiXmmeZnI/s640/affCorner.jpg The wind sock as a dunce cap ...

I'm in my mid-Forties. So, I grew up in an analog environment. My brain prefers an analog wrist Alti. I instantly recognize my alt. w/no extra thinking required. However, a lot of younger jumpers grew up in a digital world. They recognize the digital readouts instantly. There is zero transposition involved for them. I was trained to use a combination of alt., reference points, winds, & obstacles for my landing patterns. Students can't tell 2K' from 1K'. As I said in the other thread, a school Alti malfunctioned (though not obviously) on me, once. A backup audible would have prevented a dangerous, almost in the trees, landing. Some are saying canopy alarms would be a further distraction. Stressing out over whether or not your beat up school Alti will fail is a pretty big distraction, too. Even if some would argue against canopy alarms. If you approve of AAD use? You should approve of audible use for setting a hard deck. It's the same thing. If a student who was supposed to pull @5.5K', is still in freefall @2K'? It has already gone very wrong. Do you want to hope the AAD fires...completely cuts the closing loop...the reserve doesn't hesitate...& they open over an obstacle-free landing area? Or, would you rather give them an extra 1K'-1500' to pull silver higher, & increase their odds dramatically?

Christian, I can tell you w/certainty that the longer you let this go on. The more of a hold it will have over you. Fear & being a student jumper go hand in hand. You need to believe that it's a phase we all go through. You need to push through it. It will get easier again. If you need/want a recurrency jump? Do it. If allowed, you could do a no-(extra)pressure solo jump. Do that instead if you prefer. The main thing is to set a date & jump again. By allowing pre-jump jitters to make you turn your car away from the DZ a few times. You've allowed those butterflies to get huge. One sunny Saturday w/four or more jumps should set you straight again. Enjoy the journey, warts & all.

Nicely worded, John. I had forgotten about this point w/huge student canopies.

+1 A friend recently blew his knee out on a hard landing because he couldn't get his feet & knees together before impact.