PiLFy

Hi Dave, Look, I already have hearing damage. It's not fun. Statements were made by an experienced jumper that doing this sport w/o hearing protection will do no harm. That opinion was backed up by a couple of other experienced jumpers. As a Newbie, I know how low-timers read through these forums for advice. I don't want some of them to damage their ears from bad advice. So, I made a PSA. I'm a bad guy because I happen to know more about that? If I see that people could get hurt? I speak up. I didn't once, & still regret it. What mistake did I make, Dave? I asked questions as a learner. To me, that's what A & B licenses are. They're Learner's Permits. Time & time again on these boards, I've characterized myself as a Newbie. I've never tried to tell anybody, much less those w/decades in the sport, that I know more about skydiving than they do. Were that true. Chuck would be 100% right. It would be comical. What, I didn't grovel enough as I asked questions? I substantiated my arguments a little too well w/facts? Is the vocabulary threatening? If you look back through this thread. You'll see I received some good advice. I plan to take it. I see why a lot of new people get tired of some of the 'tudes, here. If you don't ask a question w/the right phrasing. You get pounced on. Rub somebody the wrong way, & they'll hold it against you later when asking an important question. The problem w/that, is we all share the same sky. I'm new. I ask questions. Give me enough crap? I'll stop asking about things. I might screw up one day, though. I might not just get myself hurt, but crash into someone else, as well. That's not cool. The last time I checked. We're all supposed to be on the same side.

Kinda like watching a newly licensed private pilot telling Chuck Yeager how to fly an airplane. Still sore about the other thread, eh? I never tried to tell Chuck, or anyone else, that I knew better than them. I merely asked some questions. Questions that still haven't been answered, BTW.

Thank You, Andy. That's very nice of you, but I don't need your sympathy. A laughingstock, huh? Then, tell me why I've received several supportive PMs over this very thread. I am far from the only one who disagrees w/you. Most others just don't want to be bothered w/the pissing contests that tend to ensue on here.

Come & get it, Chuck.

Nor should you as long as you wear that expert attitude on your newbie ass. Fall is coming folks. Probably won't be long till Albert Nooberstein gets his ass kicked around the bonfire. I never said I was an expert @skydiving. Stick to the facts.

I expect nothing better from you, Chuckles.

You know, Chuckles. If this was just you on your soapbox, doing your World According to Garp thing? I'd let it go. The problem is a lot of low-timers read these forums for advice. You're doing them a disservice. You've been in the sport for 25yrs w/o appreciable hearing loss? You know some other long term jumpers who have also been lucky in that? Good for you guys. Not everyone is that lucky. When the DOCTORS are tasked w/establishing limits for noise exposure , as for OSHA. They're not picking decibel levels on a whim. These aren't arbitrary values they've chosen. The data they utilize has been empirically borne out through many decades of medicine. The data accumulated from well-over 100yrs of modern medicine states that noise levels >85dB does damage. That is the threshold. You might want to look @this chart from OSHA. Pay attention to graph G16: http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=9735 Here's a couple more: http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/noise.asp http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/tinnitus.htm Normal conversation is about 60dBs. Freefall has been measured @130dBs. The threshold being 85dBs, how loud do you think that twenty minute plane ride up to altitude is? How many times a day do you take that ride? Sit near the engines on an Otter, & the level goes a lot higher than 130dBs. All of which is considerably louder than a leaf blower or lawn mower. Both of which require hearing protection. As you can see from these links. They're dealing w/a test population in excess of 300 million people. Add up the skydiving population any way you please. You won't even come close. In any given year, you're dealing w/an USPA membership hovering around 32,000 members, many of them long term. One figure cited in an above link is 26 MILLION Americans w/noise-induced hearing loss. Are you aware that you can lose about 50% of your hearing before noticing a deficit yourself? Have you any idea how intrusive hearing damage is in One's life? If you've been lucky w/this. Good for you. Don't make that call for everyone because you don't know how many won't be so lucky. It's not about the hearing loss? It's about sacrificing your hearing to maybe hear an impending canopy collision? Tell that to someone w/Tinnitus & Hyperacusis. You remind me of an old DI w/that line. WW2 veterans tell of being ordered to fire their weapons w/o any hearing protection. It was so they could hear orders being yelled @them. Until they couldn't hear the orders anymore... P.S.: You're not the first rude instructor I've met in this sport. I'm sure you won't be the last. You're not under my skin. To me, you're just a throwback to another era when people would put up w/your type.

Crawl back in your moonshine bottle, Andy. Chuck didn't prove a thing, & neither did you.

I'm in my mid-Forties, & prefer analog for a wrist Alti. To be honest, I've never tried a Viso, but think I wouldn't like it as much. They're awful small looking. I grew up w/a mixture of digital & analog appliances. When I glance sideways @my Galaxy. I instantly recognize the alt. There is zero transposition needed. I suspect there would be a slight amount of extra thinking involved if I switched to a digital.

I suspect that the plane rides have done more damage to your hearing than the freefalls. I do too, but I still have no measurable hearing loss. The genius that got us on the hearing topic was saying the 130db wind noise will hurt hearing. He thinks his skydiving friends are losing their hearing, but they just aren't listening to him. Have I said "Screw you, Chuck", yet? Oh yeah, I already did. Never mind. OSHA, & all the entire medical establishment are all wrong. All they had to do was ask some schmuck named Chuck... That's brilliant, Einstein.

Sorry, Not trying to be a nudge. I've seen a number of ricochets in my day. Still not sure about the no ears thing for a .22. A little echo effect + repeated reports could do harm to young ears. Also best to start good habits young. I started shooting not too much older than him.

Ummm....Dad? Eyes & Ears?

I've got well over 80 gigs on a HDD from Amazon's video service. The only problem I've had, was a couple of films that were temporarily unavailable for viewing. That pissed me off as I had already bought them. It was totally avoidable, though. Just download a copy of whatever you buy. Then, there's no problem. You get two full copies, & two portable ones w/every purchase. I buy a lot of books & stuff off Amazon. So, it works out well for me.

Engineering meetings ? IT hotties you haven't shot in the eye (yet) ???

All that, plus not having the FBI jackboots crash your door one night...

http://www.amazon.com/Instant-Video/b/ref=sa_menu_atv9?ie=UTF8&node=2858778011 Don't jump, Shah! NJ is bankrupt, & needs to keep raping you in taxes...

Retired shuttle astronaut Mullane gives a pretty thorough explanation of quack attacks, & other modern space bathroom activities: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743276833

You're kidding? Or, you haven't noticed this current thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4177798;page=unread#unread A pissing contest is putting it mildly. You'll be better off spending the time in the garage. Give her some lovin, Shah. She'll love you back.

What? I posted a direct link to the article archived right here on DZ.com. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ Saved By The Beep Posted Sun May 15 2011 By Brian Germain Most of us agree that canopy control is the most important, and most difficult aspect of skydiving instruction. Within this broad objective is the ability to fly a safe and consistent landing pattern. This is crucial for everyone, from the highest level of experience down to the beginner. The clear necessity for improvement in this area has been demonstrated time and again with the unacceptable frequency of canopy collisions and low turn accidents that have plagued our sport for far too long. General aviation has implemented many new technologies to assist pilots in navigation. These tools have enhanced aviation safety, and such devices are not considered crutches, but a necessary part of safe flying. Similar advances are now commercially available for skydivers as well, but many do not include these instruments in their safety toolkit; least of all for primary instruction methodologies. It is time for this to change. Altitude awareness is not something that ends once the canopy opens. Knowing precisely how high we are throughout the approach and landing is vital for consistency, and many of the traditional analogue devices are unable to provide truly trustworthy data. The digital altimeters that are now widely available are accurate within ten feet or so, but they have one tragic flaw: the pilot must look away from the ground, and away from the traffic, in order to access the information. Having water available does not guarantee that the thirsty will drink, and as altitude diminishes and stress level increases, visual altimeters are used less and less. As many high performance pilots have come to realize, audible altimeters are an incredibly powerful aid for heads-up access to the information that saves their lives. The time has come to utilize these tools for students and intermediate skydivers as well. A pattern is a simply a series of invisible points in space, what some have come to refer to as "altitude-location check-points". With three or four ALC's, a canopy pilot can follow a preplanned path through space to a predictable landing point. When these ALC's are programmed into an audible device such as the Optima, with its impressive tolerance of + or - only ten feet, the distracting glances at a visual altimeter become mostly unnecessary. More importantly, I have found that my canopy piloting students who use such audible cues are more aware of their surroundings, and are far less likely to run into other canopies on the way to the target. Even more importantly, by having their eyes focused "outside the cockpit" so to speak, the canopy pilot learns exactly what the ground looks like at the various altitudes. Therefore, I have discovered, if there is an instrument failure in the future, they have "calibrated their eyeballs", and are aware when they are too low to execute a hard, descending turn. Many instructors have grown accustomed to preaching the party line that relying on instruments for canopy flight is inadvisable. Although there is some merit to training our eyes to recognize key altitudes, simply trusting our inborn instincts is not an effective way to accomplish this goal. When a “flat-line” beep goes off in your helmet that marks 300 feet AGL, and you happen to be looking at the ground at the time, you immediately become a better canopy pilot. Furthermore, when you are focused on your surroundings, rather than a dial on your wrist, you are more likely to make the necessary course corrections that lead to the target. The primary reason for missing the target is, and always will be, failure to maneuver when a course correction is necessary. When you always know how high you are, and are observing your location in relation the target, you are far more likely to make the change that puts you in the peas. The safety concerns regarding the use of audible devices for flying a pattern can be addressed with a few simple rules. The first rule is, if you don’t get the first beep, assume that the instrument has run out of battery life, or is improperly programmed. When the initial pattern beep comes, verify that this is in fact the altitude that you expected it to be by looking at your visual altimeter. If it is not, or you hear nothing at all, use your visual altimeter for the remainder of the jump, and sort it out on the ground. Above all else, your eyes are your default, and you can veto what the audible is telling you, or not telling you. If it doesn’t look right, put your parachute over your head and prepare to flare for landing. There have been many technological leaps that have changed the sport forever, and audible information for canopy flight is proving to be one of the most profound. By knowing exactly how high we are at all times, we can act appropriately. We can relax more as we fly our approach, and enjoy the simplicity and joy of landing our parachutes without worry. Above all else, the reduction of the stress within each canopy pilot, both student and expert, has proven itself to allow for the full expression of skill that training has made possible. When we embrace such advances, we can more easily expand into the pilots we were meant to become.{/i]

OK, I guess you don't have anything else better to do. I'll let someone else school you on hearing loss.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=754 "The time has come to utilize these tools for students and intermediate skydivers as well."

You're in my ballpark w/that one, Chuckles. Wind noise in freefall has been measured @130dB. If you think that won't damage hearing? You can argue it w/OSHA, or any ENT or Audiologist worth their salt. As for your swinging face to face post. Screw you & your quips, pal. Right back atchya. We've each said we're done w/the other. Why can't you let it go? Bruised, inflated ego in the way? Surely a skygod as exalted as yourself, has better things to do than quibble w/a lowly Newb like moi?

But...but, but, but, but.... Germaine advocates Audible use for students?!?! He's a heretic! Meh, what's he know?

(Apart from that - most people won't hear an audible in freefall with an open student helmet (ProTec or the like) You're kidding, right? I've the volume turned down to halfway. The unit's sound hole is pointed away from my ear. Plus, I jump w/earplugs. It's still plenty loud in my open-face. Should that day ever come. The Aussie student will hear their hard deck alarm loud & clear.

You know...I could almost accept an audible on a student as a "hard deck indicator" (Wake up, you're 15 seconds from impact) Almost accept this use, Doug? You embrace AAD use, right? How is this different? In the same vein. How would a similar alarm @100' (If that was the only canopy alarm) be different? If a student is screwing up or just screwing around in the pattern. If they hear that long warning beeeep? They'll know to straighten it out as landing is imminent, no?