nigel99

I think the argument is multifaceted. Time in sport is crucial for safety and objectivity and I am sorry but I see very little evidence that the 'young' generation has grasped the fundamentals of safety. On the flip side, it is an exceptional person who has >10 years in the sport and yet is still truly receptive to some of the technical developments that have occurred in the sport. They doggedly stick to the old tried and tested methods. I find it fascinating, we have got to the point where gear reliability is exceptional, the gear is also more complicated than ever before and yet peoples knowledge about gear, weather and aircraft is undoubtedly worse than ever before. There are plenty of jumpers with many hours in the tunnel, 1000's of jumps and yet they are lacking in the simplist of skills (hooking up an RSL, spotting, reading winds aloft, understanding the basics of turbulance etc). Yet largely due to the wind-tunnel the 'technical' aspects of human flight are understood and applied by even very new jumpers (for example this weekend I witnessed a jumper turn aboubt 10 points on his first ever 4 way - he has less than 30 jumps, but just got back from the tunnel) Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

I think Airtec makes too much money off of that system for them to give it up. They don't seem to care that they're losing customers to Vigils specifically because some of us don't want to deal with that crap. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and figure they've done the math to figure out that they make more money off of those services than they would off of selling units to the people who jump ship just to avoid them. Do you have any idea how much money Air Tec makes off their maintenance requirements or how many customers they are losing because of it? I doubt it. Name one electrical/digital device you have owned that lasted 20 years. Have you ever given any thought to the fact that Vigil states the life expectancy of their unit is 20 years but they only offer a 2 year warranty? Sparky Actually most electronics designed for high reliability use lasts 20 years - medical, military and industrial stuff. Just Joe average thinks of electronics as their Wal-Mart $30 DVD player and judges by that standard. On top of that while it is 20 years, the average jumper only jumps weekends, so a heavy user is looking at 4 years of 'on time', and the bulk of that is on the packing mat in standby mode. That's what I don't get about the Airtek 4 year sales pitch, imagine having to send your iPod in for a service every 300 songs! I can assure you that military electronics of any significance are tested a lot more often than every four years! Even then half of it has less than a 100% reliability rate... No argument there, if you read the thread the context was that electronics doesn't last 20 year's and that isn't true. If you take the average use of an AAD over 4 years it is very light. To be clear NO AAD has 100% reliability rate, of any brand, it is impossible to achieve. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

The value of time in the sport is under-rated by most people. Banging out 500 jumps in a year at the same dz, from the same aircraft, and likely doing the same jump does not make you well rounded. The easiest way to get those jump numbers is to do camera so it is likely almost the same jump every time as well. You become rounded, by travelling, competing or at least doing some discipline to a reasonable standard, experiencing the different weather patterns and aircraft stuff that you come across. 500 jumps in a year makes you very current, but that is one metric of many. I have spent significant time this year being ground crew at a commercial dz (fueling, packing and other crap) I have learn't enormous amounts from the pilots, riggers and others that you don't get from being an active jumper. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

As an Aussie, you have one of the most knowledgeable people in the world on this topic available to you. Look up when Michael Vaughan will be doing a canopy course and hook up with him. He has a presentation on two outs that goes way beyond the outdated dual canopy report that people point you to. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Not a TI, but from lengthy discussions size didn't matter so much as toggle configurations. At our dz we have a mix of single and dual toggle systems, and as explained to me there are numerous different configurations of which brake lines are connected - all with different trade-offs. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Continuing Ron's theme. Yesterday after an 8 way, track little bit further than normal, mess around with slider and housekeeping little bit more than normal. End result I looked at my alti just before clearing my brakes for a control check and it was 1000ft. I had just spent 800 -1000 foot doing irrelevant stuff, so control check was well below my hard deck. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

1. Catching the exit requires a different technique to tandem. Sorry I can't expound as I'm on a 4 way and just been hosed/seen people hosed by cameramen doing their tandem video exit strategies. 2. It is crucial you are above the formation, most tandem video guys film to flat and it causes camera busts as the grips can't be seen. 3. Know the dive flow of each jump. Lesser experienced teams tend to drift around more, on blocks it can help if you know what's coming and can pop up a bit to keep everyone in frame. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Me thinks you need to get a bit more educated on hook knives, helmets and cameras. There are 2 really simple solutions: 1) Don't jump a camera. 99% of peoples camera footage is crap and unwatched anyway. 2) Get a proper camera setup for when you need it. Nobody needs a full face helmet AND a camera on the same jump. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Polite word for fraud. Basically signing that the reserve was repacked, but not actually doing the job only the paperwork. Is there any kind of rule, unwritten or written, that a rigger must resign or lose his licence when doing something so incredibly stupid and dangerous? Or at least that other riggers take him out back and beat the shit out of him? This kind of carelessness could have gotten somebody killed. The lazy bastard is essentially giving the finger to somebody's life. I would probably be tempted to murder my rigger if I ever found out this had happened to my gear. Pencil packing is in itself the wrong term. You use pens. I know a hand full of riggers out there that I would let pack for me, if for some reason I am unable to do so myself. As far as what happens to the rigger, well, at some point word will likely get around and their business will go elsewhere. I'm sure you could call the FAA Safety office and report it, but they'd have to dig pretty deeply to catch one red handed, and I doubt they care that much about us most of the time. Let's not forget pencil packing is often carried out by non riggers. Stupid people who realise they are going to have their packing card checked and it is out of date for example, or to save themselves a few dollars. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Polite word for fraud. Basically signing that the reserve was repacked, but not actually doing the job only the paperwork. Is there any kind of rule, unwritten or written, that a rigger must resign or lose his licence when doing something so incredibly stupid and dangerous? Or at least that other riggers take him out back and beat the shit out of him? This kind of carelessness could have gotten somebody killed. The lazy bastard is essentially giving the finger to somebody's life. I would probably be tempted to murder my rigger if I ever found out this had happened to my gear. I don't know about rigger etiquette and the fine print. But there is a really simple answer. Don't be a lame skydiver with no interest in your gear. Every repack cycle is an opportunity to 'do' your emergency procedures. Actually cutaway and pull your reserve (on the ground of course). walk out your freebag and reserve and have a good look at things. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Polite word for fraud. Basically signing that the reserve was repacked, but not actually doing the job only the paperwork. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Even if Cookie themselves make mounts to fit the G3, there are some of us who think cameras and snags on a full face helmet is an unnecessary risk. Squeak raised an excellent point, the vast majority of people regularly jumping camera aren't actually getting footage of any value. Maybe instead of focusing on the dangers of cameras, it would be better to show how pointless they are? Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Actually for the number of units sold and the investment required to get an AAD properly tested and on the market I am surprised how cheap they are, these aren't $10 Wal-mart DVD players either in quality or quantity sold. I'm a real critic of the AAD manufacturers and there is alot they could do better across the board - but they are certainly not ripping us off. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Dude, seriously dont get a camera, you are never in the footage and your thinking is already out of whack. I have 2 Cookie helmets a G3 and an M1, the M1 has a Low profile GoPro mount on it, the G3 has no mount (it's NOT a Camera helmet). I only ever where my camera when asked to film someone (to help improve technique). Far to many people are jumping cameras when they have no real use or need to. Why would you add further complications to an already risky sport, with no real reason. Filming my mates, and our fun is pretty lame as far as reasons go. You'll likely look at the footage once or twice and then forget all about it. Meanwhile you have invested $1000+ on the setup that you may well think twice about throwing away if your life depends on it. Spot on. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Nigel: how much analog circuit design experience do you have? How much do you know about the drift in calibration of the sensors in the Crypres and Vigil over time? Can you quote the part number of the barometric sensor used in the Cypres? Can you tell me what guarantees its manufacturer provides Airtec? If you haven't been professionally involved in the field, you don't know enough to comment. Promise. I'm a computer engineer, and I've done a little bit of digital circuit design. My thesis was on Digital Signal Processing - directly relevant to this discussion. I know enough to know I don't know shit about what matters in guaranteeing the operation of an AAD. If you know enough on this subject to be qualified to comment, I'll donate $100 to the APF team fund.

I think one mfg realizes that it is not wise to expect a pressure sensor and its associated electronics to work well enough (and we need it be work very "well" - very precise/very accurate) for decades without a check. Every time a unit that is sent in for a normal check, without having shown any problems during self test, and it needs some repair shows that their performance standards are very high. The units of other mfgs can pass a self test, but we do not know how well they will make the fire/no fire decision when the conditions are close to the limit. There is no historical record of how well their units perform after 4 and 8 years in service. The fact that cypres has a 12 year warranty is worth a lot. Why do the others not match their warranty to what they claim will be the lifetime of the unit? I think a reminder of the philosophy behind why substantial maintenance is a good idea and what happens during cypres maint testing is appropriate. It is much more than putting it in a chamber and confirming that it works. A self test cannot confirm the accuracy and precision of a sensor, or that a cold solder joint will not function at all when the unit is later at some temp extreme, among other things. http://www.cypres-usa.com/english_maintenance.pdf http://www.cypres-usa.com/...e_of_reliability.pdf Just for some clarification. There are many countries that require a four year check on AADs, the US is not one of them. Vigil does have a maintenance program to meet these requirements. It's just not mandatory in many countries. Sundevil, this is not directed at you - your statement just happens to be the last one I've seen regarding Vigil maintenance. I have seen so many posts about ADD maintenance (or lack of), I thought some additional facts might be in order. The following is from the "Offer of Maintenance" for the Vigil. ********************************************** Offer for Maintenance on Vigil II Civil For those countries that require a scheduled maintenance, we offer the following: Description of a 4 year check-up 1) Check of the original warranty Q.C. Hologram 2) Disassembling VIGIL 3) Control and Test of the Cutter Unit 4) Control and Test of the Control Unit 5) Replacement of the Battery Pack 6) Replacement of the rubber sealing ring 7) Control and Test of the Pulses Plus Element (integrated in point 10) 8) Calibration of the Pressure Sensor in the tolerance of ± 1,5 mbar 9) Upgrade of the mainboard software to the newest version available. 10) Final operational Test (7 jumps simulation in pressure chamber Go & NoGo) 11) Assembling all vigil subparts 12) Check-Up and Test of the complete assembly 13) Analyse report 14) Service card with new silver Hologram(s) Remark: The Vigil doesn’t need a scheduled maintenance but can be done on request for Vigil II civil- 125,-€ (Basic net price) (= $169.79 USD) ******************************************** Vigil will accept your unit any time you wish to send it in for maintenance - every 4 years - every 2 years or every year if you want. Not owning a Vigil because you are concerned about the lack of maintenance is not a reason, it's just a ridiculous excuse. If you have allegiance to some other AAD manufacturer then I respect that, however, when younger, newer jumpers are reading these threads, I believe we owe them all the facts so they can make well informed decisions. Both Cypres and Vigil are well respected AADs and both have long established maintenance programs. Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. . Interesting, learn something new everyday. Nice to know they are open about what they actually do in their service and the pricing is reasonable. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Well your biggest problem is not having a second camera to catch the deployment... On a serious note, I have a 2k composites helmet, solo 2 audible and a gopro 1 that I bought for $50. I don't make money from footage, and facebook video's that 5 people are going to watch, doesn't warrant a large investment. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

What was the mal? The lanyard breaks (on purpose) at approx 400 lbs: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3439894;search_string=lanyard%20skyhook%20lbs;#3439894 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2026602;search_string=lanyard%20skyhook%20lbs;#2026602 Spinning linetwists and I have no further information. Interesting posts that you pulled up - hell of a thing to have over 300lbs tension on a freebag, probably raises more questions than it answers. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Hey Nigel, a little clarification of the wording please? You make it sound rather serious, like the RSL lanyard to the Skyhook broke, or the metal Skyhook hook broke. Or did you just mean that due to the way the system tensioned during the cutaway, the lanyard to the RSL slipped off the hook (where it is restrained by only seal thread if pulled in the 'wrong' direction). The lanyard snapped. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

The Advance doesn't use container friction retention to hold the bag until pilot chute loading, it uses a retainer with a pin release or so I understand it. This method while going back to Para-Flite time works. It was the method used before container retension. Container retention was something we developed in objection to the retainer and loop. Container retension was never intended to include "Friction". Current designer have gotten carried away with appearence and increased the friction to a dangerous level. The Basic folks have been aware of extraction problems and have none. Their videos, while not of good quality, do show deployment time approaching that of the Racer. At least they show deployment times and without the unreliable MARD. No body else does. A friend had a cutaway last weekend. The skyhook tether snapped during the deployment. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Right off the top of my head (actually in my pocket right now) I have a beat up old Texas Instruments calculater that I use nearly every day. About 25 years old, works great. I've seen many 30 year old cars with original radios that work fine. All this is meaningless, as is your particular arguement. Not to mention your calculator and car radio didn't cost 1300 frickin' bucks. Then don't jump a fuckin Cypres- I wouldn't jump a Vigil if it were free. To each their own. What exactly is your point? Someone else brought up the maint and frustrating lifespan, I took the ball and ran with it. It's a legitimate complaint that plenty of people have. You are aware that the sensitivity and tolerances of an AAD are just a little bit different than a calculator or car radio, right? That's a red herring, somebody implied electronics does not last 20 year's, and a few examples got thrown out. Vigil plays games claiming 20 years, knowing that very few people will use it for that length of time. Airtek plays games by building the fear that TIME and not USE is a major factor in AAD reliability. Both are feeding the masses marketing bullshit. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

I think he was joking. There are options, even simple ones like a gopro uses a standard M5 screw, which you can buy for a few cents reducing at least one snag hazard and yet few people bother. It's a fundamental shift in attitude that has happened, sometimes it is progress, other times we end up repeating history. There is a balance between being a grumpy old man who is stuck in their ways, and being a sheep who blindly follows the latest trend. I'm trying to figure out where I am on this issue. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

I think Airtec makes too much money off of that system for them to give it up. They don't seem to care that they're losing customers to Vigils specifically because some of us don't want to deal with that crap. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and figure they've done the math to figure out that they make more money off of those services than they would off of selling units to the people who jump ship just to avoid them. Do you have any idea how much money Air Tec makes off their maintenance requirements or how many customers they are losing because of it? I doubt it. Name one electrical/digital device you have owned that lasted 20 years. Have you ever given any thought to the fact that Vigil states the life expectancy of their unit is 20 years but they only offer a 2 year warranty? Sparky Actually most electronics designed for high reliability use lasts 20 years - medical, military and industrial stuff. Just Joe average thinks of electronics as their Wal-Mart $30 DVD player and judges by that standard. On top of that while it is 20 years, the average jumper only jumps weekends, so a heavy user is looking at 4 years of 'on time', and the bulk of that is on the packing mat in standby mode. That's what I don't get about the Airtek 4 year sales pitch, imagine having to send your iPod in for a service every 300 songs! Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

I really dislike generalizations and I'm sorry to hear you have had bad experiences. I haven't had a problem (not a freeflier). I don't get the animosity that exists between RW and freefliers and in many cases it is real, rather than friendly banter. Aside from that, there is a group of rich kids that spend lots on tunnel and jump matching ninja suits - but I wouldn't have anything in common anyway. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

When I was a spotty faced kid, I was progressing very slowly due to lack of funds. I saved up for months to go to my first boogie. A couple of jumpers gave me a bunch of jump tickets