TomAiello

At what point do we stop counting what we do? This discussion isn't really about what is ethical or not. It's about why some people find forgiveness for ethical transgressions and some do not. I believe the key to that is the other actions they take, before, after, even during. Those other actions are generally perceived as indicative of their attitudes, so, as something of a shorthand, we describe those other, associated acts, as their "attitude." -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

A more appropriately analagous question would be: "Is it appropriate for a person to eat another person because their plane has crashed in the arctic and if one doesn't eat the other both will die?" -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Sure. But looked at it in BASE-ethics specific terms: Example: Action: I wander through your city and jump a building in daylight, nearly getting busted and heating things up nicely for you and your crew. Attitude 1: I hold a press conference, taunt the cops, and declare myself "god of the skies, and world's best BASE jumper." Attitude 2: I call you guys up and explain that I didn't know there were any locals, and apologize for bringing the heat onto your site. My actions are driven by my attitudes, in either case. When people evaluate your "attitude" what they are really doing is evaluating the actions you take prior, or subsequent to, some specific event. How you plan, publicize, react and respond are all actions--but they all stem from your underlying attitude. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Example: Action: I'm running through the hanger, and I accidentally trip, and yank your reserve handle, making you miss the next load and lose the 45 bucks you'd make flying camera for a tandem. Attitude 1: I laugh and say "Hey, screw you, dude, I never liked you anyway. In fact, I think it's pretty damn funny that you're losing some money. Ha, ha, ha!" Attitude 2: I say "Oh, shoot, dude, I'm really sorry. Here's my rig for that load. I'll take your rig into the loft and repack the reserve while you do that camera jump." Same action. Different attitudes. Are you sure you'd react the same way in both cases? -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Having met with an ITD foreman and talked about this issue in the last 3 days, I'd say you're wrong about this. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Oh, man. If I knew there was beer involved, I would have made sure I was local to get the beer before I did that... -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

In all honesty, I think the major difference is in attitude. Jeb (for example, but this category could include a bunch of folks like Troy Hartmann, Carl Boenish, etc) approaches other BASE jumpers with a relatively friendly, non-arrogant attitude. He understands that there are other jumpers in the world, and he makes an effort to interact with them in a positive way. While that doesn't excuse any specific ethical transgressions, it does make it more likely that he'll be forgiven by other jumpers. If he were to do his thing and then yell "screw you guys, I'm the best in the world, and I'll do whatever I want!" at the top of his lungs, as often as possible, and as publicly as he could, he'd probably get a very different reception from most other jumpers. Human interaction isn't that hard to puzzle out. Be a nice guy, don't blow your own horn in other peoples faces', and don't engage in an active campaign to intentionally antagonize other jumpers--and they are far more likely to be friendly and forgiving. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

If there was a physics forum, you know I'd be moving this discussion... -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Dude, you've gotta try harder. Shane is showing you up in the "Great Getting Banned Sweepstakes." He's been banned twice (three times if you count his IP address) and you haven't even gotten up to once. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

In general, the argument is that a large influx of new participants would occur, with less and less preparation and training, and the average skill level would subsequently decrease. I've definitely seen this happen in the time I've been involved in the sport. I theorize that the rise of the legal span here, along with accompanying "First Jump Not-Courses" has contributed greatly to this. If you can make it out to be just a thrill ride, and "so easy a bag of dogfood can do it" you're likely to see new participants who are less serious about preparation and training. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Might not a better way be to just run out and do 20 jumps, dipping the right shoulder intentionally, and see what you observe? -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Several other folks have done similar papers. Try searching the forum for their posts, and you can ask them to share research with you. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Also, be sure to read the site guidelines stickied to the top of this forum. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Done. I'll leave this in BASE because there is no paragliding forum to move it to. All, please remember that Matt is a friend of many of us here, and post appropriately. Thanks! -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

It's not so much about naming the location. It's about being warned repeatedly, and continuing to do so as often as egregiously as possible, always in all caps. Behave like a juvenile, and you will be treated like one. All; Please review the Forum Rules, specifically: I am going to lock this thread and leave it in the forum. I will remove future threads on this topic. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

All (just replying to the last post); Please remember that discussions about issues ought to focus on the issues, not the other people having the discussions. Criticizing other people's grammar, posting history, sexual orientation, or choices about where to live is not discussing the issue. If you find yourself making a post about a person, rather than about the issue, I encourage you to refrain. Let's move on. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Moab, Utah, USA: -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

I notice this too. BASE is a very international and well-traveled community, quite often everybody on the load is from a different country. English countdown is standard and it becomes second nature very fast

Ouch. Vibes for Matt, and his family and friends. Does anyone have an address for cards and such? -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

***BASE jumper who was rescued last fall surrenders to authorities By Edgar Sanchez -- Bee Staff Writer Published 12:56 pm PST Monday, February 6, 2006 A BASE jumper who became stuck on a wire after he parachuted from a 2,000-foot television tower in Walnut Grove last fall surrendered to authorities Monday. An arrest warrant for John Agnos, 41, had been issued in mid-January after he failed to appear in Sacramento Superior Court to be arraigned on a trespassing charge stemming from his Oct. 27 jump. On Monday, Agnos surrendered to Sacramento County Sheriff's Warrants Bureau, which then released him with a new court date. Agnos, a Hayward resident, said last week he was unaware of the arrest warrant until he was contacted by a reporter. He said he had been led to believe that the case against him had been dropped. His new court date was not immediately available. Agnos, who works in home construction, jumped at dusk on Oct. 27 to celebrate his 41st birthday. He said it was at least his 25th jump from the tower, which is south of Twin Cities Road and west of Interstate 5. BASE comes from an acronym for building, antenna, span and earth - fixed locations that jumpers launch from for a short skydive without aircraft. Spans are bridges and earth refers to cliffs. Jumpers aim to do all four. After his chute became entangled, Agnos dialed 911 with his cell phone. About four hours later, he was brought down by Sacramento firefighter John Clark. At least 25 firefighters from various departments were on the scene - not counting other emergency personnel, who worked under portable lights. If convicted, he faces a possible sentence of a fine and up to six months in jail. He may also face court-ordered restitution to pay for his rescue. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Clicky Looks like a great resource. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Who is the bigger dork? The guy who uses these forums to look for and exchange real information, or the guy who gets his jollies trying to make people angry? If you are going to act like a juvenile, expect to be treated like one. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Shane, I've banned you from this forum for 60 days. I strongly urge you to get a life. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Hmmm. You mean like the thread that was at the top until you posted that bit? If you don't think there's enough good technical discussion here, you're more than welcome to post some. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com