Scrumpot

I'm with you Gary! I've been to places where even the jumper lands, runs out his landing (on the grass), pulls up JUST short of the pavement, and just the top skin of his canopy begins to touch some pavement, and a bunc of moron's begin yelling "BEER"! They don't even have A CLUE as to what they are really intimating here, and it is LAME! Like you, I've subsequently seen a lowbie heading for a mere sliver of pavement (an inactive taxi-way for instance), which he could have easily crossed over, or EVEN LANDED UPON clearly, with no issues ...instead toggle-whip his ass into the ground!! Later, when asked why he did this (luckilly was only a bit banged up and dirty ...COULD HAVE BEEN WORSE!) ...Direct quote: "I knew I was heading toward the beer line". Nice flat grass on BOTH sides of the supposed "beer line" too here mind you. So the turn most definitely was for absolutely no real SAFETY reason WHATSOEVER! Now that said, there are places (still) where a safety issue could exist, and the "beer line" IS there for that purpose. Jumpers need to know this. The FIRST rule though, regardless ...should always be LAND SAFE FIRST, and if you don't know the difference, ...ASK! Risking life and limb for just the sake of a lousy case of beer (if even "enforced") is stupid. -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Woo-hoo! ...I hear this is building into something 1/2-way respectable now! We gonna have enough room in the Caravan for a single load of Mike's okay? ...Might wanna call the Casa out a week early! Looking forward to seeing some good friends, old and NEW there! Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

#1. Of course fight to stay conscious #2. As quickly and best as possible assess my glide-slope & wind direction as compared to most open (appearing) area & get my canopy pointed in that direction (preferably I guess INTO the wind). #3. Pray. In short, I'd just do WHATEVER I CAN! Would there be anything else? Hmmmm.... (??) -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Nope. ...and thank you for catching that!

Okay, I am NOT the best at describing this... which is also why I strongly suggest you take this to your instructors (or even Scott Miller or Jimmy Trantor himself). Yes, although both are essentially executed through the turn in basically a partially braked attitude, a FLAT turn does not START in 1/2 brakes. For a Flat Turn, start out by (modrately) pulling only ONE TOGGLE. Then, AS the turn STARTS, almost immediately (but only subsequently) FOLLOW with the other toggle to "balance out"/offset. This is NOT "intuitive" which is why it has to be LEARNED and then PRACTICED! A braked turn is going evenly to 1/2 brakes FIRST, then letting one toggle (the one OPPOSITE of where you want to turn) up. I hope this makes sense, and the only reason I am posting it is because you ASKED. Please take this info to an INSTRUCTOR who can IN PERSON go through this with you! They are the only ones you should REALLY take this level of advice from. I seriously DON'T want ANYONE to take this as just either gospel or in ANY WAY as "instruction", because it is not! CHECK WITH YOUR CANOPY COURSE COACHES AND/OR INSTRUCTORS/MENTORS WHO KNOW YOU, AND IN WHOM YOU TRUST TO PROPERLY TEACH YOU THESE TECHNIQUES FIRST! That said, I do also hope that at least this much is of "help". Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Learn how to properly do a FLAT TURN! If you did, and you KNEW, then you wouldn't be asking this question. A flat turn can be easily (and SAFELY ...as it is pretty much INTENDED to do) be done from 100'. It can be done from 30-50ft. But you must know how to do them RIGHT! Most people confuse flat turn with instead a braked turn, and the only way they can be LEARNED (and the differences between them) is to have someone TEACH YOU, then PRACTICE THEM until they become instinctive/intuitive and when desired/needed: AUTOMATIC. 1. Learn the difference between Braked Turns, Flat Turns and Flare Turns (each is DIFFERENT!) 2. Talk with your instructors, a mentor or a known canopy control course provider in person on applying each's techniques and in what situations, then... 3. Go up and practice each! 1st up high to get the feel for them, then further in planned and optimal conditions. That way, when you are in less than optimal conditions or situation, you will have these tools available to you in your quiver to use PROPERLY and instinctively and appropriately applied and correctly to the current (and potentially dynamic) situation at hand. Long winded answer to a (true) FLAT Turn at 100' is just fine. If understood and executed properly. Your question of seeming to think you would need to do a flat turn "quicker" at

Personally, just thinking of you "flying with a tandem" at just your number of jumps alone (with or even without camera) scares the living be-jeezus out of me. No slight or insult at all to you individually, but a tandem is NOT just "another skydive", and a sub (I'll say) 300-jump wonder being there WITH one, just brings up way to many visions in my mind of things that can go (horribly) WRONG. Patience is a virtue. Please, learn how to skydive much more comprehensively than just 70-jumps +/- might be worth. No matter how "good" you are (or THINK you are), at JUST that raw #, I really don't care who you are ...there are just way too many things you don't even know yet, that you just DON'T know. Please re-think about this! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I think that where this is coming from is a confusion (extrapolation) of: "Don't be, at 1,000 ft, directly over anything you don't want to land upon"... Meaning pick your "outs" by/before then, rather than finding yourself with extremely LIMITED options only once ou are over that huge stand/grove of trees & thinking "oops ...I'm NOT going to make it"! Apples & oranges consideration from what you are/have been asking here. Others are giving you some pretty good explanations and insights, but as usual in this medium you will hear opinions from varying perspectives ...some of which themselves (including even sometimes MINE ) might be confused. As you already know (and have stated) ALWAYS check with your instructor(s)/mentor(s)/coach(es) IN PERSON too. This is a great resource for information, but it is information which should be taken with you (I have had "lowbies" show up at the dropzone with print-outs of their dz.com interactions to ask questions with ...which is GOOD!), and sometimes too maybe, even with a grain of salt (or at least "understanding") Hope the above also in some form can give you a bit of that "understanding"... at least as far as I have presumed it. Blue skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Plenty of them around too! coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Yah, geee... now that would be the place to participate in yourr coaches course... for sure... coitus non circum - Moab Stone

This being my 1001st (beer!) post itself, all I've got to say is that: LISA MARIE ROCKS! AND MAN ...DOES SHE HAVE THE NICEST ASS!!! Didn't think I would do it, didja? HA!

...And I would THANK YOU for doing that! One of the most nervous (and potentially dangerous IMHO) times for me (IMO) is when someone is not "in" in the formation (has either gone low, or what-have-you), and at break-off/tracking time, you can't locate (see) them! Especially if you are unsure as to that persons (particularly tracking and "awareness") skills. It is what you DON'T see, and what you DON'T know that can very suddenly, but very drastically/most definitively kill you! This "near incident" is illustrative enough of that. My .02, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Oops... Replying to my own post here, but only noticed somewhat AFTER the fact, that (apparently) I am being redundant here. Sorry. (but what the heck, I'll leave it up anyway) Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

B.S.!! ...I'd MUCH RATHER he actually PULLED, than (potentially) have waited the (literal) rest of his life to get STABLE! This kind of "one liner" (although I know you did not mean harm) sends IMHO the wrong message and is wholly irresponsible without some sort of qualification! Consider this (post) that! I hope too that Gabor, you also can see this, if not also actually agree. Priorities: 1. Pull 2. Pull at the right altitude 3. Pull stable, and at the right altitude Not sure on any of them... refer back to #1! This jumper did RIGHT in that regard. IMHO. Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Yes, I believe it is. However, even that said, there are still several other ways to determine wind direction on final, other than just either fixating or "chasing" (or even NEEDING for that matter) the windsock necessarily at all! If you are choosing an alternate (or even an "out") landing area because of a clearly observed peril taking place in the main landing area ...concern for needing a windsock seems quite minimalized (or should be) in relative comparison too, don't you think? Or maybe it is that I am missing YOUR point here? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Only comment I have is that if you are looking down at the main landing area and seeing "landing chaos" & canopies EVERY which way with NO (or even opposing) patterns taking place... LAND IN THE ALTERNATE! Elsinore has plenty of room OUT and AWAY from the main landing area, that is also free from obstacles, as well as the industrial buildings (etc.). Your chances of rotors off of those would also be lessened accordingly. Why does everybody, "hell or high water" seem to have an incessant need to land on the grass (read: main landing area) anyway? If you were last down, and you KNEW that, your "flat turning" in the situation (or braked turning more precisely from the sounds of it) in of itself was just fine though, and obviously much more preferable than toggle-whipping your carcass desparately "into the wind" (more likely into the ground) otherwise. -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

And you had a rescue parachute equipped with it that fired at 200 AGL? ...How cool! Seriously though, if your helmet with protrack in it presumably went in ...how/why the 200' AGL openning report/display? Just wondering. And to the dude falling on his back shooting vid (presumably UNDER the group) at or around breakoff (presumably planned), Seriously, if they broke at 3k (acknowledged, apparently low for your "plan") Still... ...another 1,100ft for you to flip belly-to-earth, get stable and deploy? Was it also in your plan for you to have center in that situation, or rather perhaps were you also to take a 180 from center yourself too, and track? Something still does not (to me) quite add up. Looking back on all this, what different would you do now, and take away from this/recommend to others that they learn from this incident, other than "it can happen to anybody"? THANK YOU for actually having the consideration and concern to actually share this, with us all! Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

He should go to work instead then, for Cary over at Skyride! Hey Avion, is this maybe at a "tunnel near me"? Right down the road Maybe? I live in Maryland. Let us know when you get your paypal account set up & how it goes. What is it PT Barnum used to say?? To each his (or her) own, I guess. Personally, I see the "scheme" as otherwise reprehensible. Go apply yourself towards earning a living in another way. There's all kinds of resources on the internet too BTW. ...Have you perhaps otherwise just missed the term (method): "Ponzi"? Do a google on it. Somehow, I think THAT ONE would probably be a good one for you. Thanks Michael, for having cleared that one up! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

That was both very restrained, and quite "diplomatic" of you Chris! Just thought I'd let you know that some of us no doubt at least recognized this. HA! -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

What are you doing here, Derek? ...Trying yet again to make all us inherently visceral skydivers instead: THINK?? "My" Pilot is ALWAYS "the best"! "My" (home or trained-at) Dropzone is ALWAYS the "safest". Period. C'mon now Derek. We ALL already KNOW that! Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Nicely said, Jen. -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Adhering to within strictly the bounds of the parameters of your question then, and eschewing the BEST ANSWER ( ...back atcha) the answer is the "TRUE" Flat Turn. The best answer is to: 1. Not get yourself into that situation in the first place, and have already employed your SKILL and prudent preventative measures to have avoided it! and/or: 2. Have the ability (or attain it) to more correctly assess (and then execute) ALL your options (or potentially OTHER options) that just MAY be more appropriate for that situation! ...One of 'em STILL being to not be afraid (and ABLE) to take that downwinder! If your NEXT question is going to be something along the lines of what if the winds are "too strong" to accept that downwinder? ....You're gonna bring me right back to my ORIGINAL POINT of NOT "putting yourself there" (or accepting and implimenting ways not to) in the 1st place! How's that? Answer your question?? (and then some?) Blues, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

The best, "safest" method may be instead entirely to NOT TURN at all! ...and accept your downwinder!!!! That said, please go back & re-read the linked article HERE. Draw your own conclusions based upon your own personal situation (including canopy, WL, and relative skill), then practice ALL the skills on the list and becom proficient in them, so that you can make the right CHOICE, at the right TIME, for the right SITUATION!! coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Absolutely, completely, and totally: AWESOME Laurel!!!

Yup, thanks for that pic too. We look forward to having her all back in one piece and actively in the air with us again by (hopefully) August 1! Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone